Time For a Change

[HuskStihl]

I haven't kept an exact percentage count, but I am fairly sure that less than 50% of these threads I've read and followed have resulted in the OP not winding up as a logger, climber, arborist etc. And that's not taking into account guys you never hear from again. Good luck, keep your priorities in order, move carefully

 

[treeclimber101]

It is funny, but I'm serious too!! Nothing more annoying that trying to tell somebody what to do, and getting interrupted mid sentence with "do you want me to..". What I want you to do is shut the **** up, so I can tell your useless, greenhorn ass what to do!!! "Suggestion guys", is what I call em. Grr..

Greenhorn never liked that word .

 

[sgreanbeans]

I'd like to be able to say to them first: " I've learned to do this this way, but is there a better way? Or a technique that you would use instead? If so, show me." By saying it that way, I'm able to show them that I have knowledge and experience and that I may already know how to do it, but that I'm also willing to learn a better way. Is that reasonable?

Its just so hard to find a balance between showing them that they don't have to babysit you and acting like you know it all, ya know?

Proof is in the puddin. Never tell them that you can do all this or all that. Let them know your experience, then let your performance do the talking. If you go in and say that you can do this or that, you will set a high expectation and may disgruntle the crew. Then, if you don't meet and exceed that expectation, you will look like a aas. I have had several guys tell me that they where super stars. And maybe, where they came from, they where, but not in my eyes. I get them in a tree or its a groundie, and right away, I can tell they have never been taught the way of the force. Most guys who do this, have not, even tho they are convinced they are. If anything, they are pro novices. Blakes describes this best with his sig "Some guys have 20yrs exp, some guys have 1 yr, 20 times" lots of truff to dat. Listen to what the these other guys are saying. Don't interrupt them while they are trying to explain it to ya and never say, "what if we did it this way" They will take that as a challenge to their skill, your there to learn, not debate. Your techniques maybe fine, but your not there to teach them. Most salty guys have done it every which way and know the ones they like. Their show, their sig on the check, do it their way. There are many ways to skin a cat, Jedi have their way because experience has shown them what works best and when for them. One style maybe a fav for one guy, another way for another guy. From one job to another, it may change, roll with it and listen. Take me, I prefer slings and biners over knots, the next guy may only use knots. I can tie all the knots, no diff than the other guy getting how to use slings and biners. Both are fine. The idea is to learn from those who possess the skills you want. Learn from as many Jedi as possible, then take all the knowledge you have learned, pick out the stuff that suits you best and then you can start to form your own style and techniques. But try to retain all that you have learned. That little trick you seen one guy use on a really unique situation may not be needed again for years, but when it does present itself again, that little trick can make a hard job easy. Get the CA, not aware of any formal org that does not recognize a ISA cert as legit. Some guys hate it, but that on the individual. All big shows and gov agency's recognize it. Most large private outfits do as well. The tool box on top of your shoulders is the most important one. The Jedi will recognize that they do or don't need to babysit you pretty quick, so let your performance do the talking. Mouth shut unless asked, work harder than the other guys. If your boss is sweating, and your not...............

 

[treeseer]

Proof is in the puddin. Never tell them that you can do all this or all that. Let them know your experience, then let your performance do the talking. If you go in and say that you can do this or that, you will set a high expectation and may disgruntle the crew. Then, if you don't meet and exceed that expectation, you will look like a aas. I have had several guys tell me that they where super stars. And maybe, where they came from, they where, but not in my eyes. I get them in a tree or its a groundie, and right away, I can tell they have never been taught the way of the force. Most guys who do this, have not, even tho they are convinced they are. If anything, they are pro novices. Blakes describes this best with his sig "Some guys have 20yrs exp, some guys have 1 yr, 20 times" lots of truff to dat. Listen to what the these other guys are saying. Don't interrupt them while they are trying to explain it to ya and never say, "what if we did it this way" They will take that as a challenge to their skill, your there to learn, not debate. Your techniques maybe fine, but your not there to teach them. Most salty guys have done it every which way and know the ones they like. Their show, their sig on the check, do it their way. There are many ways to skin a cat, Jedi have their way because experience has shown them what works best and when for them. One style maybe a fav for one guy, another way for another guy. From one job to another, it may change, roll with it and listen. Take me, I prefer slings and biners over knots, the next guy may only use knots. I can tie all the knots, no diff than the other guy getting how to use slings and biners. Both are fine. The idea is to learn from those who possess the skills you want. Learn from as many Jedi as possible, then take all the knowledge you have learned, pick out the stuff that suits you best and then you can start to form your own style and techniques. But try to retain all that you have learned. That little trick you seen one guy use on a really unique situation may not be needed again for years, but when it does present itself again, that little trick can make a hard job easy. Get the CA, not aware of any formal org that does not recognize a ISA cert as legit. Some guys hate it, but that on the individual. All big shows and gov agency's recognize it. Most large private outfits do as well. The tool box on top of your shoulders is the most important one. The Jedi will recognize that they do or don't need to babysit you pretty quick, so let your performance do the talking. Mouth shut unless asked, work harder than the other guys. If your boss is sweating, and your not...............

 

[treeseer]

Self-study is an excellent way to get ready for CA, and CA is an excellent step in the journey to grow as an arborist. I got CA in 1992 and quit doing free estimates. I got BCMA in 2004 and raised my rate 50%, and still stay plenty busy.

As for growing your business, first: What do you want to do? It's possible to run a business from a van, if your business is mostly pruning and PHC. If your passion is really about rigging, then you need a good groundie and more gear for removal work.

 

[treevet]

location location location...or as Sam Kinneson said to the Indian people that are starving..."MOVE WHERE THE FOOD IS!!" If you are gonna start a tree biz, move to a nice upper middle class residential community, get your kids in the school and support and coach teams and you will soon be doing work for fellow residents...if you don't suck. Finance some nice used equipment and pay it off and then get more. A CA is mandatory. I passed without studying in '92 also. Read voraciously. Very easy if you get fixated on your profession and dedicate most of your time to it. You have to LOVE it. You have to be able to handle ANYTHING the giant companies handle be it any aspect of tree care or any removal anywhere anytime. Don't go work for someone and secretly get them to teach you everything, then bail out and become their competition...they will hate you, you will hate yourself.

 

[lxt]

2 years & part time = a long way to go! The day in & day out grind of tree work may have you wanting more hours at the hospital? a CA credential is ok but having the SKILL & ability to do the work aloft by climbing or out of a bucket is worth more any day!!!!!!

the guy who would give a nod to one with a CA while the other doesnt have one is someone who needs to interview a little more, I know plenty of people with a CA, utility specialist cert, etc... & they have never been in a tree, the idea & thought of doing it is what appeals to them atleast most anyway, once they try it they usually go back to permitting work!!! some times the guy with no paper to his name is the harder worker & because he feels he needs to be to make up for the lack of being certified, so be carefful on which horse you have pull the cart

as for thinking that Certs will enable you to charge for estimates & raise your rates???? that will depend on your area & competitive base!!! chances are the Certs will not do much more for you BUT..........attaining the skills & knowledge from a good teacher will be far more priceless the Certs are only icing on the cake & mean nothing without the prior!

Good Luck

LXT.....

 

[sgreanbeans]

Word, not to many things bug me more than a CA that cant tie in. That's why I think prac app should be part of the test. But that's a whole different discussion. Don't go get the CA and think that's it, its not.I know a few CA's here locally, that still really have no clue, constantly getting told horror story's of how they work and I see the work they do and it sucks. But, because they have the CA, people think they know it all, and they don't. Not that I know it all either, I definitely don't, but I do know what is going on in the field. Paper and shiny trucks don't make ya a good Arb, the work that u do, does. Paper is not going to teach you what to do in the field, but it will let others know that you have good intent on learning Arboriculture, not just saws and gravity. It will open your eyes to all the knowledge that is out there and show you that there is much more to the industry. I have spent a long time reading and studying and still everyday, I try to read. Just because I have the CA, and at some point I will have the time to test for the BCMA (I think I will pass!), This does not mean I quit studying, way to much info out there to ever feel that I have all I need, ya never will have it all, but the more ya add, knowledge and experience, it will, at some point, come together and you will be a force to be reckoned with. JPS has become a career student of Arboriculture and Biology and only does tree work a few times a month, but he draws so much coin when he does work, that's all he needs to do. That comes from the reputation, knowledge and experience he has.
Well, you got the attention of some good ones. That is because of how you have handled yourself on here since you joined,starting your newb whadya do today thread. I think ya have your head on straight and could make a go of it. Be careful for what ya wish for! U may just get it. Its hard and can smash your brain to mush. When your full time and small, its all on you. Everything, want to go out with the buds, nope, gotta sharpen chains. Wanna go to a car show on Saturday, nope gotta fix that saw. Its crappy out and ya wanna stay inside, nope, you promised Mrs White you would be there, its cold as hell and everything is frozen, don't matter, you made a promise. Dont go, fine, bad rep and lost coin. With that all being said............baby steps, meaning don't take all this and drop what your doing at the hospital and go for it. Nothing wrong with having a goal, nothing wrong with taking your time to ensure your getting to that goal properly.

 

[Pelorus]

LXT - As indicated in my previous post that you referenced, it doesn't always pan out! Would you prefer to work with intellectually lazy thugs, or intelligent people wanting to learn? Which of those two is gonna inspire you, lol?

 

[NYTREECLIMBER]

Word, not to many things bug me more than a CA that cant tie in. That's why I think prac app should be part of the test. But that's a whole different discussion. Don't go get the CA and think that's it, its not.I know a few CA's here locally, that still really have no clue, constantly getting told horror story's of how they work and I see the work they do and it sucks. But, because they have the CA, people think they know it all, and they don't. Not that I know it all either, I definitely don't, but I do know what is going on in the field. Paper and shiny trucks don't make ya a good Arb, the work that u do, does. Paper is not going to teach you what to do in the field, but it will let others know that you have good intent on learning Arboriculture, not just saws and gravity. It will open your eyes to all the knowledge that is out there and show you that there is much more to the industry. I have spent a long time reading and studying and still everyday, I try to read. Just because I have the CA, and at some point I will have the time to test for the BCMA (I think I will pass!), This does not mean I quit studying, way to much info out there to ever feel that I have all I need, ya never will have it all, but the more ya add, knowledge and experience, it will, at some point, come together and you will be a force to be reckoned with. JPS has become a career student of Arboriculture and Biology and only does tree work a few times a month, but he draws so much coin when he does work, that's all he needs to do. That comes from the reputation, knowledge and experience he has.
Well, you got the attention of some good ones. That is because of how you have handled yourself on here since you joined,starting your newb whadya do today thread. I think ya have your head on straight and could make a go of it. Be careful for what ya wish for! U may just get it. Its hard and can smash your brain to mush. When your full time and small, its all on you. Everything, want to go out with the buds, nope, gotta sharpen chains. Wanna go to a car show on Saturday, nope gotta fix that saw. Its crappy out and ya wanna stay inside, nope, you promised Mrs White you would be there, its cold as hell and everything is frozen, don't matter, you made a promise. Dont go, fine, bad rep and lost coin. With that all being said............baby steps, meaning don't take all this and drop what your doing at the hospital and go for it. Nothing wrong with having a goal, nothing wrong with taking your time to ensure your getting to that goal properly.

Great post!


Sent from my prepaid phone

 

[bootboy]

Beans, you have been more than helpful. I've always appreciated your professionalism and encouragement. That you for your words and wisdom.

I know that I won't become a superstar overnight. At 29 I've realized that hard work is the most important thing to getting anywhere in life. And that to get to a meaningful place in this business, I've got a ways to go and that only hard work will get me there.

I want my love of the work to be my driving force. I don't want paper and credentials just I can snooker business. I want to be passionate first, everything second. I want the training and qualifications so that I am able to do the work I love, in the most professional, safe, and effective way.

And you're right about baby steps. In my short time exploring this line of work, I've realized that there are too many aspects of it to allow yourself to get tunnel vision. You need to build all the facets together, don't get lopsided about it. A little here, a little there.

I started this thread seeking exactly what I've gotten, wisdom and guidance from pros. I may never fully realize my ultimate goals, but I've certainly gotten some great counsel that will get me closer.

Thank you everyone for your words of encouragement. I'll keep y'all posted about any developments and progress I make. In the meantime, feel free to keep the wisdom flowing my way.

 

[sgreanbeans]

word

 

[lxt]

LXT - As indicated in my previous post that you referenced, it doesn't always pan out! Would you prefer to work with intellectually lazy thugs, or intelligent people wanting to learn? Which of those two is gonna inspire you, lol?

No ones talking about lazy thugs! a comment was made that a nod would be given to a person holding a CA credential over someone without it! Im just saying that one needs to interview a little more & your saying in a round about way that because someone has no CA their not intelligent & dont wanna learn?

I didnt become a CA till several years ago & it was Treeseer who kinda challenged me to do it....! I studied & found that most the stuff was common sense not like when the NAA proctored the exam, the point........... I could work anywhere as a climber / bucket operator because I went through the apprenticeship & got my ticket, I trained under excellent men who knew the trade & not one of them was a CA, those men`s reputations & the way they trained garnered more respect than any paper saying Certified Arborist on it ever would.

Many of these guys read books & learned about their trade on their own because they wanted too, not because some entity lobbied utilities , Govt`s ,Parks , Etc... & made the need for an ISA CA mandatory to be able to work in those places, the thought that a NON CA is lazy, non intelligent & doesnt wanna learn is just a stupid comment...........I passed that test the first time & did it catapault me to a higher level of tree wisdom? NO......... truth is maybe some think that having the skill to do the job is more important than PAYING $200 + to take a test that says you`re Certified but....might not have the skills to do the job.



LXT.............

 

[Pelorus]

The notion that I have insinuated that a non-CA holder lacks intelligence or the desire to learn is a confection on your part, LXT. As I rarely see your presence around here anymore, I dunno if you are just unaware of (sarcastic) posts I have posted since joining this ship of fools re. how easy it has become to now pass the ISA CA exam.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Maybe demographic.
If I did not have it, life would be tough!
Where I live and where we market is very different from other tree co's. Some require TCIA Accredited with a CA on site. The small shop's are really taking a hit here. I feel bad because that is where I came from. You could make a good living here in the 70's and 80's and early 90's.
Now it is very different,,
Jeff

 

[sgreanbeans]

Word on Jeff's spill. I was actually asked to produce my cert on a bid. At HP, they asked for it and a private HO who has a big pad on the beach in Encinitas (sp?). Both knew what they where looking for and new all about it.

 

[Groundman One]

Now this may simply be the exception and nothing close to the rule, but I've grounded for lots of climbers and exactly one of them was certified, and he was so dangerous to himself and others that I had to call the boss and tell him to come over and deal with it or I would take the keys to the truck and sit out the day in the nearest restaurant.

Certified may be worth something, but on the job training is worth a helluva lot more.

 

[KenJax Tree]

I'll take a qualified climber over a certified climber. Anyone can pass a written test but that doesn't mean he can do the job properly.


Sent from my AutoTune carb

 

[Pelorus]

Apparently NOT everyone could pass the ISA Cert Arb exam of years past....the one that included both tree ID, and successful completion of every domain on the test. So it got dumbed down to what it is today, and I reckon not everyone that writes it passes it even now.

 

[nk14zp]

With that, you are ahead of the game. Probably would be a good idea to get on with another crew, a good one. Find the top, most arrogant guy ya can, beg him to let you join. The good outfits are real funny on who they bring in, don't wanna train your competition, believe me, I know. Convince him your legit and want to learn it the right way. I worked over my edumacatur for a few weeks before he got tired of me and showed on a job and said "grab your saddle" Don't ever say, "well, I do it this way" You will be shot off like a rocket. Listen and watch and be thankful someone is teaching you the way of the Jedi. Your techniques may work fine, but your there to learn the "tricks"

Do the above.