Tips for getting in and out of these trims faster.....

[802climber]

I have been working at a new job climbing for a guy who is a Bucket Op only and bids accordingly.

Only problem is I am not superman, and I care a lot about the quality of tree work I leave in my trail.

I have gotten much better at prioritizing what will make the most difference in the amount of time allotted, and finding out what HO wants to see from the ground.

On my own solo trims I can often afford to make out with each tree and do a 100% job.

However I have been sent to some jobs lately that are bid for 5 or 6 climbs in 3 or 4 hours -- easy, medium or hard climbs often with roping involved.

Then I knocked out a large red oak that was a full trim and needed two low branches roped off the service drop in a fraction of the time allotted because it was a easy climb with a central tie in point that I could shoot from the ground.

I am learning to decide whether to take the time to set multiple lines at the beginning or just set a quick one and advance my line as I go.

I recently did this really spread out ash that was bid for just under 3 hours (arrival to departure). Full trim, deadwood, several large busted branches over house, two long limbwalks over house with roping. Service drop on one side, phone/cable on the other. No landing zone other than neighbor's fence. One Green ground guy.
I did 2/3 of the tree off a SRT line then I came down and did the really messed up part off dDRT.

HO priority was busted branches and taking weight and drooping limbs away from house so I had to skimp on the crown.. It would have taken me ages to access the whole tree.

We were out of there in just under 5 hours.......... Had the ground guy roping for a third of the time and we had to clean up a godawful mess with not much of a way out of the yard.

The other climber would have done this tree on spikes and flipline.

My main way of climbing naked leads w/ dDRT is to advance the tail of my climb line as I go up then once I am up there I can rappel back toward my primary tie in. Or plan ahead and set the necessary lines. I don't know what I am missing with my spikeless technique but I would sure like to find out. The trees that slow me down are really spread out with nothing to climb on, yet not horizontal enough for much limbwalking. (Either big Ash trees or lion-tailed in the past.......)

Sorry for the cell phone pics, and sorry for the RANT.

I would appreciate any tips anyone has to offer, as I have been mentorless for 12.5 months and counting.

These pictures are of that Ash trim:

 

[Iustinian]

You're off to a great start...

I have been working at a new job climbing for a guy who is a Bucket Op only and bids accordingly.

Only problem is I am not superman, and I care a lot about the quality of tree work I leave in my trail.

I have gotten much better at prioritizing what will make the most difference in the amount of time allotted, and finding out what HO wants to see from the ground.

On my own solo trims I can often afford to make out with each tree and do a 100% job.

However I have been sent to some jobs lately that are bid for 5 or 6 climbs in 3 or 4 hours -- easy, medium or hard climbs often with roping involved.

Then I knocked out a large red oak that was a full trim and needed two low branches roped off the service drop in a fraction of the time allotted because it was a easy climb with a central tie in point that I could shoot from the ground.

I am learning to decide whether to take the time to set multiple lines at the beginning or just set a quick one and advance my line as I go.

I recently did this really spread out ash that was bid for just under 3 hours (arrival to departure). Full trim, deadwood, several large busted branches over house, two long limbwalks over house with roping. Service drop on one side, phone/cable on the other. No landing zone other than neighbor's fence. One Green ground guy.
I did 2/3 of the tree off a SRT line then I came down and did the really messed up part off dDRT.

HO priority was busted branches and taking weight and drooping limbs away from house so I had to skimp on the crown.. It would have taken me ages to access the whole tree.

We were out of there in just under 5 hours.......... Had the ground guy roping for a third of the time and we had to clean up a godawful mess with not much of a way out of the yard.

The other climber would have done this tree on spikes and flipline.

My main way of climbing naked leads w/ dDRT is to advance the tail of my climb line as I go up then once I am up there I can rappel back toward my primary tie in. Or plan ahead and set the necessary lines. I don't know what I am missing with my spikeless technique but I would sure like to find out. The trees that slow me down are really spread out with nothing to climb on, yet not horizontal enough for much limbwalking. (Either big Ash trees or lion-tailed in the past.......)

Sorry for the cell phone pics, and sorry for the RANT.

I would appreciate any tips anyone has to offer, as I have been mentorless for 12.5 months and counting.

These pictures are of that Ash trim:

That's awesome you're trimming the right way (w/o spikes); and right off the bat - it sounds like your guy is bidding kinda low to begin with, especially since you say he's bucket only.

What saddle you climbing on and how many ropes are u using?

If you're good with the throwball, on trees like that, set up a couple ropes in the tree before you ascend, its easier to do that from the ground. you can wear yourself out pretty fast trying to crawl up the back/under side of one of those and then slip once and start over lol. Technically, under ANSI your actually required to have more than one line hanging in the tree anyway, in case the need for an aerial rescue ever arises.

Another thing that's helped me get ALOT faster over the years, I made a couple extra long fliplines from a climbline that was cut. being able to flip off in the top of one lead and slide down 35 feet to another while still being tied in to my main tie-in spot can make things go a lot quicker. Only down side is the weight of the extra long tail, so sometimes I either coil it up or toss it all into the wingman bag clipped on under my mechanical ascender.

one other trick that might help you is the nylon runner straps -- they're cheap, and if you get a few of those, you can girth-hitch them onto the log/branch so you have a loop to grab or set your foot into and you can sort of make your own ladder where there's no branches to grab/step onto. Those things are also useful for girth-hitching onto big wood when you're trying to one hand toss it down -- kinda gives you a handle to control it with.

I can post pics for ya later if u want.

 

[troythetreeman]

is your boss happy with your work?
if your boss doesnt climb, hes not going to bid a climb accurately 100% of the time
so you both have a learning curve
do nice work
be safe
and if your running over the time he bid it for while doing what is expected, and doing it as efficiently as possible....
attend some climbing competitions, when you can watch other climbers work

 

[medic2397]

Had a similar situation recently, only difference was I was the boss. The climber to me is worth his weight in gold, if he is good, reliable and easy to get a long with. With that being said, your boss should involve you in some of those bids if he is unfamiliar with bidding trim jobs outside the bucket. I guess it all depends on your relationship with your boss. Mine worked well, so well that I actually enjoy climbing now! Good luck!

 

[802climber]

That's awesome you're trimming the right way (w/o spikes); and right off the bat - it sounds like your guy is bidding kinda low to begin with, especially since you say he's bucket only.

What saddle you climbing on and how many ropes are u using?

If you're good with the throwball, on trees like that, set up a couple ropes in the tree before you ascend, its easier to do that from the ground. you can wear yourself out pretty fast trying to crawl up the back/under side of one of those and then slip once and start over lol. Technically, under ANSI your actually required to have more than one line hanging in the tree anyway, in case the need for an aerial rescue ever arises.

Another thing that's helped me get ALOT faster over the years, I made a couple extra long fliplines from a climbline that was cut. being able to flip off in the top of one lead and slide down 35 feet to another while still being tied in to my main tie-in spot can make things go a lot quicker. Only down side is the weight of the extra long tail, so sometimes I either coil it up or toss it all into the wingman bag clipped on under my mechanical ascender.

one other trick that might help you is the nylon runner straps -- they're cheap, and if you get a few of those, you can girth-hitch them onto the log/branch so you have a loop to grab or set your foot into and you can sort of make your own ladder where there's no branches to grab/step onto. Those things are also useful for girth-hitching onto big wood when you're trying to one hand toss it down -- kinda gives you a handle to control it with.

I can post pics for ya later if u want.

Well, I actually learned on spikes and spent a lot of time on spikes. For the last year I have made myself learn spikeless climbing and gain proficiency, though every time I think I'm getting good, I am reminded one way or another that I have a long long way to go.

I have picked up quite a bit of gear in the last year (but nothing too fancy) and I am finally getting to where it speeds me up rather than slows me down.
Just replaced my Cougar with a Masters Deluxe and I am climbing on Blue Streak and Velocity at the moment (with Beeline and Ice tail).

Lately I have started setting an SRT line and a DdRT line in the big ones if necessary and this helps me stay pretty mobile. Been really enjoying the rope wrench and foot ascender lately.

I am also getting patient enough to set adequate lines from the ground with the bigshot/throwball. Often at least one or two good climb lines for the more involved climbs and any rigging lines or whatever. It is sometimes hard to spend 30+ minutes setting lines on a harder tree with a stifling time constraint but man does it make the climb go faster and easier.

What you are describing with the really long fliplines, that's what I do with the tail of my rope. I keep a spare e2e on my tail and tie in DdRT with the tail of my climb line for balance, or to access/come back from way out on some lead somewhere ("Double-crotching"). Takes a minute to rig up but it's a lot safer. Oh yeah and I do use a lot of loop runners.. I can often be seen trying to get my boot back out of one.

That's what they're sayin about me lately. He's a little slow but he is safe and does a good job.

It's also hard to have perfect times when I only have me and one ground guy who I am supposed to train! And half the time I need him to rope for me so he gets behind on clean up. This is my first "foreman" position... I don't have the title but just the responsibility. I am used to a 3 man crew being the minimum for efficiency's sake. I shouldn't be coming out of a 4 hour trim and getting stuck at the job for another hour or so cleaning up.

I have taught the ground guy how to rope, how to run a saw and to TELL ME if he ever nicks a rope...... Electrical hazards....And what to say if he ever has to call 911.
Other than that.....the money's good and I've been earning every penny of it. Monday this guy is learning how to tie a bowline.

When I was whining about that big Ash trim I was still coming off a wrist injury (whacked it hard with a Silky Ibuki) and things have really been looking up since then.

My problem is production is not the only thing going through my head. I don't want to be attached to any half-ass work, and I take the time to do what's written on the work order, talk with and satisfy the customer and create return customers, and referrals.

If you've ever had a boss who gauges your quality by how fast he receives the customers payments and how few complaints he receives, rather than the actual tree work left behind and how many compliments he receives, then you know what I'm talking about.

 

[Iustinian]

Well, I actually learned on spikes and spent a lot of time on spikes. For the last year I have made myself learn spikeless climbing and gain proficiency, though every time I think I'm getting good, I am reminded one way or another that I have a long long way to go.

I have picked up quite a bit of gear in the last year (but nothing too fancy) and I am finally getting to where it speeds me up rather than slows me down.
Just replaced my Cougar with a Masters Deluxe and I am climbing on Blue Streak and Velocity at the moment (with Beeline and Ice tail).

Lately I have started setting an SRT line and a dDRT line in the big ones if necessary and this helps me stay pretty mobile. Been really enjoying the rope wrench and foot ascender lately.

I am also getting patient enough to set adequate lines from the ground with the bigshot/throwball. Often at least one or two good climb lines for the more involved climbs and any rigging lines or whatever. It is sometimes hard to spend 30+ minutes setting lines on a harder tree with a stifling time constraint but man does it make the climb go faster and easier.

What you are describing with the really long fliplines, that's what I do with the tail of my rope. I keep a spare e2e on my tail and tie in dDRT with the tail of my climb line for balance, or to access/come back from way out on some lead somewhere. Takes a minute to rig up but it's a lot safer. Oh yeah and I do use a lot of loop runners.. I can often be seen trying to get my boot back out of one.

That's what they're sayin about me lately. He's a little slow but he is safe and does a good job.

It's also hard to have perfect times when I only have me and one ground guy who I am supposed to train! And half the time I need him to rope for me so he gets behind on clean up. This is my first "foreman" position... I don't have the title but just the responsibility. I am used to a 3 man crew being the minimum for efficiency's sake. I shouldn't be coming out of a 4 hour trim and getting stuck at the job for another hour or so cleaning up.

I have taught the ground guy how to rope, how to run a saw and to TELL ME if he ever nicks a rope...... Electrical hazards....And what to say if he ever has to call 911.
Other than that.....the money's good and I've been earning every penny of it. Monday this guy is learning how to tie a bowline.

When I was whining about that big Ash trim I was still coming off a wrist injury (whacked it hard with a Silky Ibuki) and things have really been looking up since then.

My problem is production is not the only thing going through my head. I don't want to be attached to any half-ass work, and I take the time to do what's written on the work order, talk with and satisfy the customer and create return customers, and referrals.

If you've ever had a boss who gauges your quality by how fast he receives the customers payments and how few complaints he receives, rather than the actual tree work left behind and how many compliments he receives, then you know what I'm talking about.

I've been there!!!! Things will get better for you though; you're putting in your time, busting ass with very little acknowledgement, and if you keep treating customers like that -- word will get around.

sooner or later -- you'll get another new 11m climb line and quit using that heavy blue-streak; also your next saddle should be one with a sliding rope bridge, glide lite, sequioa, treemotion, ergovation -- you will notice and love the difference although those masters are nice, I started with one.

If you're doing srt - check out the RADS system, its getting more and more popular.

Dont sweat 30mins setting a line -- I've seen great climbers have a bad day and spend half a morning throwing that bag lol. I always say -- I'll either get it on the first, second, third or 100th hahahahahaha. Never in between -- you know exactly what I mean.

it does work doing that with the tail of your rope (called the "M" system), but I have noticed that I'll burn up some time pulling the tail of my line over crotches doing that too though. That long flipline will still save you time over doing that when you have the chance to add it to your gear bag. dont forget a redirect sometimes too-- the strap and carabiner, and I use the red double pulley petzl has (for drt), prevents the line from crossing itself and locking off (only drawback with using a redirect is going back up there to retrieve it, but it has its advantage if you know you have to retrace your steps)

they may say you're slow and safe -- but they repsect you for it, and they're probably not complaining either -- plenty of fast guys have cost them money with accidents I bet.

I always HATED doing three man jobs with two guys -- but its going to happen, and the boss had to know it when he sent you out like that. Take it as a compliment and keep it up. Everything you said sounds familiar and those hard days are the ones that will make you wanna quit or turn you into a beast climber. With your attitude you sound like you won't be long getting there. Good luck, buddy.

 

[treemandan]

Ash are tough to prune. And don't take advice from people who don't know. Like bucket queens and live tree spikers. Whatever they have to say should go through one ear and out the other. It is not going to do you one bit of good listening to anything they say. If you can get them to actually help without tripping all over the throwline then good but i doubt that very much. Just go along til you can't take it anymore or choose now to drop them.

 

[802climber]

I've been there!!!! Things will get better for you though; you're putting in your time, busting ass with very little acknowledgement, and if you keep treating customers like that -- word will get around.

sooner or later -- you'll get another new 11m climb line and quit using that heavy blue-streak; also your next saddle should be one with a sliding rope bridge, glide lite, sequioa, treemotion, ergovation -- you will notice and love the difference although those masters are nice, I started with one.

If you're doing srt - check out the RADS system, its getting more and more popular.

Dont sweat 30mins setting a line -- I've seen great climbers have a bad day and spend half a morning throwing that bag lol. I always say -- I'll either get it on the first, second, third or 100th hahahahahaha. Never in between -- you know exactly what I mean.

it does work doing that with the tail of your rope (called the "M" system), but I have noticed that I'll burn up some time pulling the tail of my line over crotches doing that too though. That long flipline will still save you time over doing that when you have the chance to add it to your gear bag. dont forget a redirect sometimes too-- the strap and carabiner, and I use the red double pulley petzl has (for drt), prevents the line from crossing itself and locking off (only drawback with using a redirect is going back up there to retrieve it, but it has its advantage if you know you have to retrace your steps)

they may say you're slow and safe -- but they repsect you for it, and they're probably not complaining either -- plenty of fast guys have cost them money with accidents I bet.

I always HATED doing three man jobs with two guys -- but its going to happen, and the boss had to know it when he sent you out like that. Take it as a compliment and keep it up. Everything you said sounds familiar and those hard days are the ones that will make you wanna quit or turn you into a beast climber. With your attitude you sound like you won't be long getting there. Good luck, buddy.

hey, thanks.

btw... i do run a bridge on my masters. something like this, with a ring or two on it, attached with some delta links. lots of attachment points.

 

[802climber]

Ash are tough to prune. And don't take advice from people who don't know. Like bucket queens and live tree spikers. Whatever they have to say should go through one ear and out the other. It is not going to do you one bit of good listening to anything they say. If you can get them to actually help without tripping all over the throwline then good but i doubt that very much. Just go along til you can't take it anymore or choose now to drop them.

yeah, ash are my least favorite to prune. other than huge honey locusts which have been previously liontailed...

or weed trees like box elders, silvers OR......

...i was in a very messed up ash the other evening i was supposed to be "fixing" but was unfixable... unless the HO really wanted stonehenge tree and future trimming bills.... it had been raining slush till lunch that day, so by that point i got up there and was up there cussing the piece of junk. little did i know the HO had heard at least a minute of it when he chimes in and says he would like an estimate on a removal.

so it worked out ok.

 

[Iustinian]

yeah, ash are my least favorite to prune. other than huge honey locusts which have been previously liontailed...

or weed trees like box elders, silvers OR......

...i was in a very messed up ash the other evening i was supposed to be "fixing" but was unfixable.. it had been raining slush till lunch that day, so by that point i got up there and was up there cussing the piece of junk. little did i know the HO had heard at least a minute of it when he chimes in and says he would like an estimate on a removal.

so it worked out ok.

I agree -- ash trees can be nasty -- lost of suckers to chase down, lots of deadwood, some of it hard to get to, and other climbers lion tail the heck out of them.

I just finished a salvage trim that looked like a candlabra, but they were bound and determinted to keep it.

of note -- honeylocusts are one of those trees that can be very sensitive to overpruning, so I usually advise customers that we wont be getting too aggressive on removing each and every last sucker. Havent had a complaint on those yet.

fun fact that's won me a few drinks on more than one bet -- Box elders are actually maples: Acer negundo, ash-leafed maple. Michael Dirr's Manual of Woody Landscape Plants provided the proof winning my bet. nothing like a few drinks on the argumentative ground guy at the end of the day! lol

nice job on the sale hahahahaha.

 

[802climber]

Yeah they are Acers...the worst ones.. haha..

You can even tap them like Sugar Maples.

Yeah I tell customers that with Honey Locusts especially. I never strip off all the suckers/interior branches, got to leave the right ones or else they will grow like crazy!

I'd like to have some numbers on overpruning, to tell customers who want their honey locust, silver maple, red oak, etc stripped CLEAN...... no really you will regret this.

 

[Iustinian]

Yeah they are Acers...the worst ones.. haha..

You can even tap them like Sugar Maples.

Yeah I tell customers that with Honey Locusts especially. I never strip off all the suckers/interior branches, got to leave the right ones or else they will grow like crazy!

I'd like to have some numbers on overpruning, to tell customers who want their honey locust, silver maple, red oak, etc stripped CLEAN...... no really you will regret this.

a couple photographs will serve that purpose for you -- what can happen if you insist on this. We'll try to dig some up.

 

[sgreanbeans]

Ash are tough to prune. And don't take advice from people who don't know. Like bucket queens and live tree spikers. Whatever they have to say should go through one ear and out the other. It is not going to do you one bit of good listening to anything they say. If you can get them to actually help without tripping all over the throwline then good but i doubt that very much. Just go along til you can't take it anymore or choose now to drop them.

I have dead wooded them and it looked like I raped it, HO thought I butchered it, until I showed him the material, all 10 billion dead little sticks.
Talkin bout messed up throw lines, bought a new zip it line, little round holder thing busted off in the bag, line slid out and rode around for a few days in the back of my truck, I dint know they guys stuck it back there, I seen it, pulled it out, nothing but spaghetti, wife thinks I should just throw it away and get a new one. I refuse! Its brand new, I will un-tangle it, if its the last thing I do!

 

[the Aerialist]

Pin Oak Trim ...

Here's a video that shows why I wouldn't like working in a high production environment, especially if the guy quoting the job is used to being in a bucket, i.e. "Bucket Queen".

Seeing TreeEmergencyB whizz through trimming made me feel old and slow. Anyway without further ado (or mea culpa's) here is the Aerialist trimming a Pin Oak:

[video=youtube;jcErO_YVZFQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcErO_YVZFQ[/video]

 

[Iustinian]

Petzl Wallstep, Aider, Etrier

Here's a pic of something that could help get up a long vertical limb that has no branches to use as "steps" when your climbline is set elsewhere. Just something to mess around with I guess lol. clip it into one of your runner straps and you have a quick "ladder" lol

Its called a Wallstep from Petzl -- they are also commonly known as aiders or etriers, Black Diamond has them, as does CMI. Rock climbers use them for free climbing -- and u could also incorporate it into a srt ascending system by clipping it into a Petzl Ascension handled ascender.

 

[802climber]

Thanks, but I think I found what I need to please this guy..........

 

[Saw Dust Smoken]

wide canopy

Set several ropes from ground if possible. Or use two ropes to continue the swing thru canopy. Top tyin srt is very simple with two ropes. Swing\walk from one side to other. Spend more time doing work than setting ropes.

 

[lostcoastland]

SPIKES!!:biggrin:

 

[BC WetCoast]

Here's a video that shows why I wouldn't like working in a high production environment, especially if the guy quoting the job is used to being in a bucket, i.e. "Bucket Queen".

Seeing TreeEmergencyB whizz through trimming made me feel old and slow. Anyway without further ado (or mea culpa's) here is the Aerialist trimming a Pin Oak:

[video=youtube;jcErO_YVZFQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcErO_YVZFQ[/video]

That'll be a 2 day suspension for 1 handing. Second violation and instant termination.

 

[the Aerialist]

It's good to be your own Boss ...

That'll be a 2 day suspension for 1 handing. Second violation and instant termination.

I'm a tree surgeon (mostly amputations) and my tree saw is my scalpel. To limit myself to two handed operations would seem awkward and inefficient, especially for skimming off suckers.