to clear the air a bit....

[kf_tree]

some one put the lid back on that can of worms. today i worked at a major college in manhattan. i topped about 25 atlantis's, to clear for a big dish. i just left 20 foot high sticks. not a leaf on them. 2 price's was given. they chose the cheaper way and left the sticks standing. would you turn down a 5000.00 job because it was against your standards? greg as far as a race, i have no ego in this trade if i loose i loose no big deal. i play with ropes a little in my spare time, i'm into ice climbing in the winter.(it must be a spike thing, ice axe's and crampons) i do not make free ascents i try to be belted or tied in at all times. i throw my climbing line above me alot when i flip my belt off to go over limbs. murphy4 tree's. a bucket is a new toy for me. my boss just bought one so i've only been in it a dozen times. i always climbed. i have no aspirations to climb for ever, i got sucked back in because of the offers i was getting. if when i move if i can't get good money climbing and i can't wear spikes it time for me to get out of tree work. i have no interest in climbing with out spikes. i only use a ladder when i had a small contract to prune city tree's. no spikes then. i've never used a throw ball. i use a tautline hitch. pole saw or power pruner when needed. i have a hobbs block. but i only use it when needed. not every job. i have 2 different portaraps. i try to plan my routes so i never have to go up and down the tree twice. on some big trees i'll set 2 or even 3 climbing lines in different directions so i don't have to go back up to get over limbs. as far as cuts that all depends on what i want the limb to do. as to my training, i was trained by a climber who has 25 years exp. he's the best climber i personaly know. yes he spikes every thing to. with the high over head of working in nyc we must produce big $$$ to make a profit. i consider my self more of a production cutter than an arborist. but you guys also should work or know more about my area before you cast stones. like i said before i would be compleetly happy doing nothing but removal work.

 

[Kevin]

That`s all I do is removals off the lines up here,
it`s all wild northern boreal forest.
Drive the trans Canada two track and patrol for trees.
Plucked another off the fiber today and laid it to rest, nice and easy does it!
Life is good!

 

[Toddppm]

How much more could it have cost to cut the remaining 20 ft. ? Anyway yeah, I would have turned it down. Just as much money can be made somewhere else with some education. Could have explained to them how fast they're going to grow back and block the reception and talked them into removal for more money?

I guess if you're not the owner you're a production man no matter what kind of work you're doing.
A race, not me I'm way too slow

You don't have any interest in the challenge of climbing without spikes but your an adrenaline junkie going ice climbing???

 

[kf_tree]

the tree's were in an alley behind a fence with razor wire . getting the lower wood out would have been a pain. plus the groundies would have been trampling through 20 years worth of garbage to make the flush cuts. no way to do stumps unless the fence was removed. if they sucker out again its future work.

 

[greenguy]

Hey spike your work and job prices are bs your not making that much money screwing up trees. What your adverage per man hour sounds like 45-55 an hour. Does not sound like that much production to me. It took 9-10 guys 6 days to make 30,000. Need to raise your prices or get faster.

 

[Reed]

With all due respect, I guess that's why New York City looks like New York City. I know the back streets, the boroughs, the "edge" properties and concertina wire and garbage flying about, been there seen it. Spike-it's right about those conditions but I can't help to wonder if it would improve if the city would recognize the benefits of trees and I'm not talking aesthetics, I'm talking air quality. NYC doesn't care about how things look, just how things work.

 

[kf_tree]

green guy was replyed to privately no need to ad bs accusations, to a sketchy thread. i gave him one of my boss's phone#s if he wants to confirm that i walk my talk. as far as how do i moraly spike tree's, to be honest i never gave it much thought. its all i've ever known. actually i'm surprised i'm in the minority on this. looks like i learned some thing today. like i said before i only know of one company in my area that does not spike, and their climbers suck. he asked me about doing his removal work.about 75% of my work is removals. i can't for the life of me figure why some of you guys don't use spikes on removals.

 

[greenguy]

Hey spike I need to move up north It must be nice to make that kind of money.(52*5=260 260*400=104,000 wow good salary)
So whats 500,000-104,000 so much for profits. Hey sorry to chap you so bad number add and subtract but at the end of the day your still only 1/3 of the way to what we do a year with the same number of guys. By the moss will not grow in smog every been to alt apparently not. I have been to new york and alot of other places around the country. You seem to have that ignorant yankee mind set about the south Hey if the south so bad why the hell are all of you yanks moving south. :angel:

 

[kf_tree]

green guy save your breath. i will no longer reply to your comments.

 

[Gopher]

No raking over the coals here, just straight talk. A spike mark is a wound, and if a customer wants a million wounds , fine. the only problem is this; "What if I live next door, and my tree is now ailing due to the fact that the spiked tree is on the way out for some mysterious reason?"

I liken it to smoking. If somoeone wants to smoke, so be it. What if I don't want to smoke and you are next to me smoking? Looks like I have no choice but to inhale your smoke. Is this right? Look at it from a tree health perspective, and do also what is morally and ethically right, that's all that I am asking.

I have been cursed recently in dealing with a person who acquired a tree spade a number of years ago and plants many many trees, all about six inches too deep. Well, he is very mad at me for pointing out to some of his clients (they called me because they were concerned) that the planting job was very poor , and that it should be redone. He blasted me in front of a couple of people (oh, did I mention he is real professional, too!), and I politely said, "Do you have any brochures or information you could show me to support your planting method?" He got even madder.

To make a long story just plain old long, how many of you out there think I now should start planting stock deeper because this guy does it and has been making good money at it? See my point? Spike, I don't care if there are one hundred other tree services in Manhattan or Timbucktoo, do the right thing. If it's making a buck as fast as you can, then please do not call yourself an arborist, tree care professional, or full service tree care service.

Gopher

P.S. I may not be rich, but we owe no one anything, have a good life, and do tree work based on sound principal.

 

[The Big Hurt]

Pruning

I'm Barry and I am new to the site. I, like spike it, use gaffs on removals and prunings. What can I say....I am a small business and I dont have the option of climbing with out spikes because I am not nearly efficient enough at it to feed myself every week. I am familiar with some of the techniques and could get into a tree with out spikes but I would not be nearly as efficient. I wish I could get jobs done just as efficiently with out spikes but when it comes down to it its either save the trees and starve or spike the trees and eat the next day. I'm sorry but in that competition the tree is not going to win. I have the gear to climb spikeless but I would go out of business. So thats great that you want the trees to feel no pain but I am not willing to starve over it. Just my outlook on it.

 

[Gopher]

See the name at the top of this forum? It's called, "Arborsite.com" Now, look up the definition of , "Arborist", and for those of you who think your technique of using spikes on anything but removals falls into the definition, then I'm not an arborist but a Monkey's Uncle!

Yes, every once in a great while I will put the spikes on to get to a hanging limb in a cottonwood, where the bark is about a foot thick, but that's it.

Gopher

 

[kf_tree]

are you asking me to leave?

 

[Greg]

Spike it, I think it would be hard to find someone who does not use spikes on removals, but the majority of the people on this site, me included would never use them to trim/prune trees. Removals end up in a mill, fireplace, or as mulch, so spikes don't harm anything in that case. Climbers who rely on spikes think that is the only way, but when you have a little time under your belt working without spikes you will quickly see how unnecessary they really are.

Start learning about tree health & biology, understand how flush cuts, topping, and spikes really impact a tree. Read trade publications. Read the ANSI standards. Look around for trees that were topped years ago, do they look healthy?, or are there a lot of dead branches, or are they already dead, or candidates for removal?

Those climbers who don't sell the work and set policy within the business (owners) are in a tight spot. No one wants to take food out of your mouth. Our industry is evolving, and customers are getting smarter. However, keep riding the spikes, don't evolve, and the companies and climbers who do will soon be eating your lunch.
Greg

 

[Greg]

Spike it, I think it would be hard to find someone who does not use spikes on removals, but the majority of the people on this site, me included would never use them to trim/prune trees. Removals end up in a mill, fireplace, or as mulch, so spikes don't harm anything in that case. Climbers who rely on spikes think that is the only way, but when you have a little time under your belt working without spikes you will quickly see how unnecessary they really are.

Start learning about tree health & biology, understand how flush cuts, topping, and spikes really impact a tree. Read trade publications. Read the ANSI standards. Look around for trees that were topped years ago, do they look healthy?, or are there a lot of dead branches, or are they already dead, or candidates for removal?

Those climbers who don't sell the work and set policy within the business (owners) are in a tight spot. No one wants to take food out of your mouth. Our industry is evolving, and customers are getting smarter. However, keep riding the spikes, don't evolve, and the companies and climbers who do will soon be eating your lunch.
Greg

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Spike-it asked:

"are you asking me to leave?"

I doubt anyone wants you to leave, your input is valuable and makes good reading.
Nobody here will convince you, or the thousands of climbers like you, to stop using spikes, any more than former president Clinton could be stopped from womanizing.
Do us all one big favor though, please don't train anyone!

 

[trees4life]

Did I misunderstand Mike's post? I don't think anyone wants to see Spike it leave the site.

I'm sure many companies have business practices that not everyone agrees with. I don't like the thought of anyone using spikes for pruning, and I would hope that these climbers/owners would look into this further and educate themselves, as suggested. I don't think Spike is being judged as a person, just the way he performs the work.

I thought this site was here to exchange information, and provide support and education. I'd like to think most if not all others here feel the same.

Spike, don't cut yourself off over a disagreement. But I do think you and the trees would benefit if you read up on this

 

[kf_tree]

i'm not trying to defend my self but i'd like describe a job i did today. a company i work for was hired by the tree owner to remove one half of a double lead norway maple. i needed a 28 in bar to finish the wood cuts. now the half i took down was the better part of the tree. about 40 feet taller than the other half. the part i left had the tops ripped out from storm damage. nasty jagged dead wood. the tree had big cavities from some one taking big wacks in the past that never healed up. the tree was shot and should have come down. now was i wrong in spiking that tree? do you guys really decline jobs like that?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i'm with trees4life, and i never thought i'd say it MM ; ....

But seriously, may i be so bold to suggest that you try weaning yourself from spikes on easier, well scaffolded trims? Perhaps laddering up to the scaffolding of the tree. Maybe, some easier removals; you might even be better than you think. Especially if you give some learning curve time to catch up to ya. Placing a line in with throw kit, can give you 2:1 power to manipulate yourself; that on a well scaffolded easier tree, might show ya some things quick!

i think we all hope you reflect on and observe the damage you might cause otherwise and at least seek to minimize it; perhaps on some days even feel bad enough to quietly apologize to the tree. i did that as i switched over, wore short spikes and tried to use them like retractable cat claws, not using them all the time, just cause i had them on.

i can promise you, it will develop more climbing trix etc.; in other words; on a lot of trees, you can get more out of it than you put into it learning to not use 'em!

On easier removals i don't spike, using spikes is a skill/awareness that i have let slack. i even find my Bashlins heavy etc. now. Every once in a while on some steep trimming inclines it makes me cuss, but i always figure a way around, and my understanding of roping and rigging has gotten better in trade.

Then some days you can take those new skills and wear spikes too, to put the whammy on it!

We've all tried it your way here, perhaps you can try this on 15-20% of the trees ya do and see; it ain't that bad! And maybe you can charge more for that blue ribbon job without 'em too!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Spyder agrees with me. I musta said something stoopid.


Spike-dude, who sells the work you do?

"Uh yea, we'll cut the good healthy half off of this tree, we will also spike up the other half and cut any good branches there, then we will ignore all the damaged areas, and then we will bill you $2400. Sound good?"