MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Ryan Willock said:
Ha! Probably not. :alien:
topping trees good?
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Ha! Probably not. :alien:
tophopper
ArboristSite Guru
ill bite, Ive seen several trees die from being spiked. It is not ill-legal here to wear them to prune, but unethical yes. I have no bucket truck, and no fleet of 350k equipment in use to awe my friends.
Plain and simple- guys who top and spike trims are just lazy or uneducated.
When I began climbing I topped and spiked out of ignorance, then i learned the proper way, and am glad I did. Wearing spikes sucks anyway, would rather do without.
Im also willing to bet that myself and 75% of climbers here can climb circles around guys wearing spikes, and do a better job.
Im sure my words here wont change your opinion, but thats ok because you, Mr. Mcpeak(if thats really you) are not even on the same playing field as us good arborists, we are working for a whole different market than you.
The clients that keep calling you back to butcher their trees can have you, we want quality clients and provide quality work, we can only hope that someday you'll change your ways, but if not the demand for proper work will phase you out of business.
nuff said
Plain and simple- guys who top and spike trims are just lazy or uneducated.
When I began climbing I topped and spiked out of ignorance, then i learned the proper way, and am glad I did. Wearing spikes sucks anyway, would rather do without.
Im also willing to bet that myself and 75% of climbers here can climb circles around guys wearing spikes, and do a better job.
Im sure my words here wont change your opinion, but thats ok because you, Mr. Mcpeak(if thats really you) are not even on the same playing field as us good arborists, we are working for a whole different market than you.
The clients that keep calling you back to butcher their trees can have you, we want quality clients and provide quality work, we can only hope that someday you'll change your ways, but if not the demand for proper work will phase you out of business.
nuff said
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
We went around and around with Mc Bubba a few years ago. He probably Googled himself and found a link to here 
I wonder if good Harry will come back and read any of the responces. Since he does not want to learn anything, becasue he allready knows all there is to know. I'm not sure if it's worth it to go over everything agian.
I've have seen trees that survived topping and gaffing, and I have seen trees with bad pockets of decay and cankers associated with them.
So Harry, if your interested in a frank discussion on tree physiology, from a tree climber who cannot use a bucket, does not get drunk the night before work ( rarely have more then 2 beers a night) started climbing trees the started reading about them.. well I'm willing and able.
I wonder if good Harry will come back and read any of the responces. Since he does not want to learn anything, becasue he allready knows all there is to know. I'm not sure if it's worth it to go over everything agian.
I've have seen trees that survived topping and gaffing, and I have seen trees with bad pockets of decay and cankers associated with them.
So Harry, if your interested in a frank discussion on tree physiology, from a tree climber who cannot use a bucket, does not get drunk the night before work ( rarely have more then 2 beers a night) started climbing trees the started reading about them.. well I'm willing and able.
spacemule
The Peanut Gallery
I want my 30 seconds back!ismyturnnow said:
Matt Follett
ArboristSite Operative
If it's really you...
Harold.
I understand where you are coming from, however; the issue of topping and spiking goes far beyond what is visible to the eye. And far beyond what a few lucky individuals whom have witnessed 50 years or so of personal observation.
First, have I ever seen a tree die from topping? Yes, several in fact, even in my short time in the business. (There is one such once beautiful silver maple near a Victorian house just down the street that makes me sick every time I drive buy.) The resulting loss of photosynthetic potential means the tree uses up an incredible amount of stored resources to try to "rebuild" often either shutting the tree down outright, or putting it in a "spiral of decline" weakening its defenses until it is overcome by multiple pathogens and/or insects. Further to this, and perhaps more important in the realm of our current legal systems are the ones that need removing because they were topped. Decay has overtaken them and shortened their useful lives. The resulted weakening of the structural portions of the tree has put the surrounding environment at risk, and the tree must be taken down to mitigate the risk.
Does spiking kill trees; well you might be right there, as the simple act of spiking up the tree would likely not ever kill it. However if you are familiar with tree biology, and the inability for trees to repair damaged tissue, combined with Shigo's model know as CODIT, you will realize that the spiking wound you leave today will never be repaired, and can open the entire tree (that which is present at the time you place spike through cork cambium) to pathogen attack. Ah but trees do have defenses so it is unlikely that the spiking wound will kill. However (yet again) the combined effect of the loss of photosynthetic resources, (from the topping or overpruning) and the now multiple wounds throughout the trees structure will most likely begin the tree on a slow decline, and years if not decades before its genetically typical decline, Somebody like me will have to tell the homeowner that the beautiful, albeit structurally compromised tree over their garage should come down.
Long after you’re gone!
Harold science can teach us a lot, so can books, so can life.. I started doing this the wrong way. Reading, experiencing, school and keeping an open mind has at least opened my eyes to what is potentially right, and what is definitely wrong.
P.S. if it's not Harold... man I just wasted some serious time typing!
Harold.
I understand where you are coming from, however; the issue of topping and spiking goes far beyond what is visible to the eye. And far beyond what a few lucky individuals whom have witnessed 50 years or so of personal observation.
First, have I ever seen a tree die from topping? Yes, several in fact, even in my short time in the business. (There is one such once beautiful silver maple near a Victorian house just down the street that makes me sick every time I drive buy.) The resulting loss of photosynthetic potential means the tree uses up an incredible amount of stored resources to try to "rebuild" often either shutting the tree down outright, or putting it in a "spiral of decline" weakening its defenses until it is overcome by multiple pathogens and/or insects. Further to this, and perhaps more important in the realm of our current legal systems are the ones that need removing because they were topped. Decay has overtaken them and shortened their useful lives. The resulted weakening of the structural portions of the tree has put the surrounding environment at risk, and the tree must be taken down to mitigate the risk.
Does spiking kill trees; well you might be right there, as the simple act of spiking up the tree would likely not ever kill it. However if you are familiar with tree biology, and the inability for trees to repair damaged tissue, combined with Shigo's model know as CODIT, you will realize that the spiking wound you leave today will never be repaired, and can open the entire tree (that which is present at the time you place spike through cork cambium) to pathogen attack. Ah but trees do have defenses so it is unlikely that the spiking wound will kill. However (yet again) the combined effect of the loss of photosynthetic resources, (from the topping or overpruning) and the now multiple wounds throughout the trees structure will most likely begin the tree on a slow decline, and years if not decades before its genetically typical decline, Somebody like me will have to tell the homeowner that the beautiful, albeit structurally compromised tree over their garage should come down.
Long after you’re gone!
Harold science can teach us a lot, so can books, so can life.. I started doing this the wrong way. Reading, experiencing, school and keeping an open mind has at least opened my eyes to what is potentially right, and what is definitely wrong.
P.S. if it's not Harold... man I just wasted some serious time typing!
A tree is not a rock, especially the outer layers.
i think trees around people are stressed generally. Any form of life approached with a chainsaw has reason to worry. Driving spikes in trees is bad stress management, and continues the drain on resources as the wounds seal for years with stuff harder to produce for the tree than normal wood. Telling someone that you are gonna charge for doing something positive to tree, then driving spikes in it to top it; might be a different type of crime. Especially when it is unnecessary, unsightly; let alone bioologically incorrect to any life form. No matter how ya look at it, it isn't neutral, and it isn't good for the tree; then it must be bad. A spike wound is a tattered wound also, we should always aavoid tattered, ripping wounds. Should be clean, no disrupted fibre cuts, almost glazed across; no fibre disruption in cuts. That is why we pre and finish cut ( i hope that isn't being questioned). Then it follows none from spikes either.
i've seen to much damage and distortion to wood from topping cuts, even the politically correct type to 'argue' that one. Especially of the no branch collar type. All i can figure is the atmosphere is different on that other planet!
Edit: i see no waste in that collection of thoughts Matt.
i think trees around people are stressed generally. Any form of life approached with a chainsaw has reason to worry. Driving spikes in trees is bad stress management, and continues the drain on resources as the wounds seal for years with stuff harder to produce for the tree than normal wood. Telling someone that you are gonna charge for doing something positive to tree, then driving spikes in it to top it; might be a different type of crime. Especially when it is unnecessary, unsightly; let alone bioologically incorrect to any life form. No matter how ya look at it, it isn't neutral, and it isn't good for the tree; then it must be bad. A spike wound is a tattered wound also, we should always aavoid tattered, ripping wounds. Should be clean, no disrupted fibre cuts, almost glazed across; no fibre disruption in cuts. That is why we pre and finish cut ( i hope that isn't being questioned). Then it follows none from spikes either.
i've seen to much damage and distortion to wood from topping cuts, even the politically correct type to 'argue' that one. Especially of the no branch collar type. All i can figure is the atmosphere is different on that other planet!
Edit: i see no waste in that collection of thoughts Matt.
Matt Follett
ArboristSite Operative
That is perfect! I truly love it Spydie, I request permission to quote it further on in life.
edit for the miseplelled truley
Last edited:
In my whole life I have <i>never</i> seen a proton smashing into a plutonium atom and cause it to create a cataclysmic chain reaction. I don't believe it's true. All these high-falutin scientists have too much book knowledge and not enough street smarts.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Excellent post!Matt Follett said:
JJackson
ArboristSite Operative
Love the answer Glens. Topping does kill trees I work for utilities and we top when we cant remove a tree under the lines for cearance, we have killed a number of trees. Crown reduction can't be performed on a pine, only topping. Spikes do damage to trees, just look at the resulting scars. There're ways to climb into a tree without spikes or a bucket, all the guys that work with me do it on a daily basis. I thought good busnisses strive to go the work right. This guy is a little to stuck on all those guys with all the shinny new equipment to realize that modern arbiculture is the best out there.
JJackson
ArboristSite Operative
Clearance, we do not have any davey climbers here, The utility and 2 other major contractors do. We just provide foresters (3 of us in the northeast portion of the state) to plan and obtain the work. The utiliy only uses spurs on dead and things that cant wait. I do love clearance not appearance, unfortunatly it would easier if we could always have both but I will take clearance other appearance anyday.
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
Matt Follett said:
You have to ask Darin
If that McPeak post was genuine, the author should consider the difference between human time and tree time. You may not live to see the damage done. Does that mean it's not important?
That's like saying smoking cigarettes doesn't cause damage to humans.
love
nick
clearance said:
They understand as soon as the lights go out!
But one thing I wish I could say to people when they gripe about powerline pruning, would be to defend the utility saying that they pruned to natural targets, directionally pruned, or made proper cuts as best they could within the scope of their work which is clearance.
But what do I see? Stubs! Flush Cuts! branches that could have been cleanly pruned with hydraulic loppers, ripped, torn and split with a dull stick saw. Hangers and broken branches constantly left.
Maybe it's not so bad in other areas, but the quality and absolute lack of caring here is terrible.
And let me say this: the property owners and landscapers share a good part of the blame planting trees where they don't belong!
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
clearance said:
I whole heartedly disagree. In many scenarios the trees have to be cut, but to say that the powerline is more important than ANY tree...simply is an over-generalization.
I know you have a job to do, but so do the tree huggers!
Seriously, though. Think about it. Any tree? Think about all the famous trees. Do you think you could just start hacking up the Angel Oak because it's limbs are getting close to the lines? I bet you'd be met with a bit of resistance if you attempted to do that.
love
nick
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
They should both be working together whenever possible.
DDM
Addicted to ArboristSite
His Facts Page is Humorous............ Would those be Facts? No I think oppinions....... :blob5:
Would those be Facts? No I think oppinions....... :blob5:clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nick-I don't know about the angel tree, how many board feet are in it? We get a lot of resistance anyways, even cycle pruning, never mind cutting down hazard trees. Sometimes, if I'm in a good mood when people ask/????? about what we are doing I say "You are so right sir/maam, in the more civilized european countries the lines are buried" Alan-here we have to adhere to proper pruning techniques, or the utility will complain. The days of stubs are past.
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