topping

[frashdog]

What trees will straight up die from topping?

What trees will suffer greatly and decline in over all health?

I'm very interested to know why it is so widely accepted as a bad thing. Before someone goes and treats me like a tard or troll let me tell you that many of our trees up where I live were naturally topped back in '98. Wicked ice storm. Took down miles of metal power grid towers, snapped miles of telephone poles like dominos. Looked like a bomb whent through leaving the snapped tops of trees pointing skyward. One has to look very closely now to see any hint of this event in the trees. Many people were advocating storm harvesting, cause they're going to die anyways, well they did not.

This came back to me the other day as I was looking at a customers huge red oak and I could see where the original top of about 15" in diameter had been cut after it snapped from the ice storm. Tree was still very healthy. I have also noticed many topped white birch around town that show no sign of problems.

 

[Climb020]

It all depends on the health of the tree you are topping. If the tree is declining or unhealthy or there is a lack of water the tree will probally die. If you top a healthy tree chances are it will live. Some topping cuts will not heal at all and lead to rot.
Topping is just not correct IMO for any reason at all. Also topping a tree is usually cheaper, easier and less labor intensive then would the correct way to go about pruning the tree. Use to be the only way to prune trees but know we know better (that is most of us).
In you case I believe you are talking about storm damaging trees that you think should be topped or have been. If the crown is thinned on these tree the air is able to blow through the tree easier as apposed to break the tree.

In my area I see white pines getting topped most. The wood is very brittle while the branches are quite heavy. And does that sap suck.

I believe that orchards top there trees for more fruit. Fruit tree usually have small, strong branches.

 

[frashdog]

I wonder if so many trees survived the '98 storm due to it being winter (dormint) when they were damaged.

People top trees up here due to the views, lots of mountains and lakes. Some newer tree services are actually advertising the service.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It is not o much that it will kill the tree outright, but that the new sprouts are just fascially attatched, succulent and fast growing. Allso, since they come from latent/dormant buds, they grow in a disorganized fashion, competing for space and resourses.

Then there is the decay problem mentioned above. Since the "Wall 1" of the CODIT modle is the weakest, toppping creates larget pockets of decay then collar cuts.

Since topping is usually an indiscriminate cut it is usually internodal. Where headding and reduction cuts are nodal, where there is more stored energy to fascilitate compartmentalization.

Combine the fascial attatchement ( branch bases are anchored down into the stem, think of a knothole in cross section) the fast growing nature of sprouts and this poor compartmentalization and you have a much higher risk of storm failure in the future.

IMO this is why people think of fast growing trees, such as silver maple as poor landscape choices. They see a lot of failure after stormas from poorly managed plants, and then say they fall apart in high winds. I've been in hundreds, if not over a thousand big old silvers that have been left alown, or just lightly thinned over the years and they can deal with storms of over 90mph.

So to sum it up in a shorter way, topping is poor management because it works against the natural growth patterns of the plant and increases risk of failure over the long term.

It does creat job security for the topping practitioner, because he has to go back and hack it all up again every 3-5 years.

 

[rebelman]

The tree is extra shaky for many years. Then when the sprouts are ready to start falling off, they do so like massive tomahawks, falling with extra force to sink six feet into an established yard or plummet through all three stories of a large house. Just today I looked at a large red oak with a split branch. There was a black column of decay caused by a gratuitous stub. Hung in another tree above a house trailer. Your no tard or troll frash, this malpractice is rampant. something needs to be done. Oh yeah, ANSI standard was enacted in ninety three to be used in courts of law.

 

[frashdog]

Very good John.

Around here we have box elder (acer negundo) best example of fast growing weak tree. We call them weed trees. You can remove any amount, I mean hack them right up, and they will rebound. You can't kill them unless you grind the stumps. Wicked high maintanance tree once you start pruning if you plan on keeping them tame.

So to sum it up in a shorter way, topping is poor management because it works against the natural growth patterns of the plant and increases risk of failure over the long term.

The manner in which you explained it...I buy it.

The topping that occurs around here is mostly done within stands of trees. Like pruning a hedge. Many people have yards that border "woods". These woods have trees that grow more like poles than a nice crowned yard tree would. So, in many cases the tops being removed are not that big and there is a lateral branch next inline to take over the duties as the top to come. I've noticed many of my white pines on my property have been topped from wind, they do not take long to send up a new top. Seems like removing the top of a nicely shaped yard tree would have a greater detremental effect than that of a forest tree.

 

[clearance]

Then when the sprouts are ready to start falling off, they do so like massive tomahawks, falling with extra force to sink six feet into an established yard or plummet through all three stories of a large house.

C'mon General Lee, thats a bit alarmist now. Topping isn't good, don't do it unless you have to, like tree growing into a powerline, view, large cash payment.

 

[Ekka]

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/StopLop.html

http://www.plantamnesty.org/stoptopping/5reasonstostoptopping.htm

 

[frashdog]

Now that I'm learning more I see there are different types of topping/lopping.

The type I've been refering to is when a small portion of the destinct central leader is removed to allow a flatter top within a stand of trees. This usually results in a "few next in line" laterals making an attempt at the new leader position. Not to many suckers if any result from this. This is what I see naturally happening to my white pines. This is also how most view tops are done that I see.

Now this other form of topping I have become aware of recently not only looks bad, I have seen dead trees from it. Chopping off many, if not all tops/ends, like cutting back a hedge. Yes I agree, this form follows most everything bad I have read/heard about from topping.

 

[Climb020]

There is another form of topping but I cannot remember the name of it I am sure someone here does. It is when the tree is topped then the sucker growth from each year is pruned back to the topping cut. This creates large ball like callouses on all the branches. This is many down to smaller trees. I have only seen this done on 2 properties in my time doing tree work. Looks much uglier then traditional topping would.

 

[deercatcher]

The two topping styles mentioned are a drop crotch reduction where the length of the leader is substantially shortend to a diagonal cut at and in relation to a remaining subordinant whose diameter is at least 1/3 that of the parent stem. I specify an average length reduction, and average cut size for the targetted tree. We try to leave a 60-75% of the folaige intact in a more compact form.

Pollarding is the maintenence practice of yearly sprout removal to the pollard head. It is a european practice. Modified, it is a pleasant way to maintain crepe myrtle. Pick your managed height; shape and clip ends. Then drop crotch any cut larger than 1/4 inch, so that all ends are that size or smaller. Each year, during dormancy, repeat, and snip out inside sprouts. During bloom cycle, snip out the spent flower heads to encourage more blooming.

Random removal of the majority of foliage from a tree at arbitrary heights ignoring remaining limbs, cutting without regard to laterals is passe. It is documentable malpractice. If for reasons of damage or reclamation, document that it is not a reccommended practice, and sell future care to remediate back to a natural form. Drop crotch has value conceptually, because trees carry a genetic mandate as forest creatures to colonize open spaces. They are naturally limited in spreading by the descretionary presence of neighbors. Grown in the open, they have a tendency to overcommit their architecture a bit. Thinning and bracing are better, but some cases call for the careful restricting of spread.

Arboriculture is Art, Science and expirience. Study the science so you understand how trees work, and respond. Understand how they invest energy, and work with them. Develop an eye for artistic beauty, not the raping overpruning for dramatic effect that abuses the tree. Pay attention to how trees grow, and how they fail, what are the dominant weather patterns in your area. Then, you can confidently sell your expertise.

 

[inztrees]

pollarding?

 

[Ekka]

But pollarding is generally done with species that can take it and it's done from a young age.

You generally dont get a mature tree and whack it some ... hey presto a pollard. :deadhorse:

Pollarding is common in Europe, has a long history, usually done on deciduous trees in winter. London Plane and Lime or something like that are common species they do it too.

Other pruning forms include pleaching, espallier, coppicing, thinning, and reductions via drop crotching.

 

[Jim1NZ]

Pollarding is accepted because it is regarded as a correct arboricultural practice. Collar cuts made at an early age of the trees life and are strategically preformed to control the shape and form of the tree into the future. A frame work is developed and the tree is pruned each year. This causes swelling at the pollard union which acts as a protection zone. By creating a protection zone and only creating small cuts each year (removing regrowth), the tree is able to compartmentalize quickly and all 4 walls of CODIT are not exposed, thus regarding it as professional practice.

Some trees are said to live longer by being pollarded as they are unable to fall apart form heavily weighted branches etc. Also its thought that tree senescence is delayed by restricting tree mass, amount of required water & minerals, and wasted energy on reproduction.

 

[Jim1NZ]

Pollarding is NOT topping

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Pollarding is NOT topping

Well the first year it is.

I would like to add a correction to the deffinition of pollarding; it is not nessesarily an annual reduction, but it is a cyclical.

There are a few that I know of where they are pollarded on a 3-5 year cycle, with sprout thinning in the interim. Some (I think it was Coder) speak to leaving sprouts on in every cycle to help fascilitate compartmentalization

As to the speceis one that sprouts readilly is more important than good decay resistance

 

[Jim1NZ]

Cheers JP.

Removing shoots annually would speed compartmentalization of cuts though wouldn't it?

 

[deercatcher]

Al shigo, in his 3 day seminar at Boone, NC said pollards should be done anually; but if that couldn't be managed, not to exceed 3 year intervals.

 

[Ekka]

Cheers JP.

Removing shoots annually would speed compartmentalization of cuts though wouldn't it?

I think that there's some research evidence that suggest compartmentalisation and woundwood growth is substancially better when there's some foliage left near the cut. This seems obvious as food supply would remain and naturally boost codit and defenses.

 

[Jim1NZ]

Nice one Ekka, where did you find hat research?

I wanted to know how long from a dormant bud, to a shoot in leaf, would take to return the energy back into a tree and surpass how much it cost the tree to produce the shoot?

What i mean is how long does it take for a source (energy sored) which is used in bud and new shoot development to be replenished by a sink (energy production)?

It obviously must be less than a year because annually pollarded trees would die.