Tree Care and Logging

[cedar]

I own a tree care business in southwest Virginia. I have been wanting to branch out into logging for some time. I would continue to do tree work March-Nov and log through the winter.

Recently, I've been approached by two landowners looking to do some logging on their land. One tract is 15 acres and the other is 75 acres. Both tracts have moderate slopes, good access, some decent oak and poplar but mostly low grade wood.


I want to buy some equipment to log with that dovetails with tree work. Maybe a tractor with rear winch and bucket grapple. I would load the wood on to a 7'x14' 14000 gvw dump trailer that I currently own. I have a 1996 Ford F-superduty diesel to haul the trailer, equipment, and logs.

Is it possible to make money logging with such a setup?

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[2dogs]

How far is the mill and will they take short logs in small quantities? Do you have a place to store logs till you get full loads? What will the mill pay? 5 tons of logs (1mbf) here doesn't pay squat, maybe $100.00.

 

[cedar]

The mill is about 30 miles away. I think they are paying $150/mbf for poplar and oak saw logs but I'm not 100% sure.

I would process the low grade into firewood, which sells for $175/cord in my area.

What kind of production could I get on easy to moderate grades with a 50 hp tractor. What's a reasonable skid distance for such a tractor.

It sounds like the trailer capacity might be the limiting factor. Maybe down the line a gooseneck dump trailer with a higher gvw would be a better option.

 

[2dogs]

The mill is about 30 miles away. I think they are paying $150/mbf for poplar and oak saw logs but I'm not 100% sure.

I would process the low grade into firewood, which sells for $175/cord in my area.

What kind of production could I get on easy to moderate grades with a 50 hp tractor. What's a reasonable skid distance for such a tractor.

It sounds like the trailer capacity might be the limiting factor. Maybe down the line a gooseneck dump trailer with a higher gvw would be a better option.

I would look into a second trailer but a gooseneck flatbed so you can load onto the deck. Keep the dump for your other work. The mill can pick your load of logs off the flatbed trailer with a loader.

My old Kubota was a 60hp set up 8' wide for stability. You can skid 1/4 to 1/2mile without a thought. The shorter the better. Still you can skid longer but production will fall. $100.00/mbf ain't much. If they will accept logs early morning or evening and you are willing to work long hours and pay the fuel bill it will work out.

 

[Oldtimer]

Don't buy a farm tractor to go logging with. For a personal woodlot, sure.
Go locate a skidder, and make it a grapple with a winch. You'll end up doing a lot more logging in the future...plus, it can be used in certain tree job situations...

Here's a great deal...

JD 648

Also, forget about hauling the logs yourself. Bad idea. Drop in to several mills that might buy your wood, and ask them for a good reputable log trucker. Ask more than one, and if there's one name that keeps coming up....call them. This way you can concentrate on cutting wood and actually cut enough to make money. Make sure the mill sends YOU the scale slip and the check. YOU then copy the mill slip, and use it to pay the trucker what you owe him. Most will haul by the thousand / cord.
When you buy the timber, be sure you can turn a profit. Don't pay so much that you work your butt off for $200 a truck load. In general, very general, you'll want to take home $400-$500 a tri-axle load of wood, hardwood and softwood logs, and $300-$350 a load for hardwood pulp...Softwood pulp....usually it's only worth $3-$4 a cord to the landowner. Sometimes, less. It's almost not worth ####ing around with unless you are a mechanized crew.
Just an FYI, a tri-axle straight job log truck can generally haul about 4,500' of hardwood sawlogs, and about 6,000 feet of pine.

 

[Oldtimer]

The mill is about 30 miles away. I think they are paying $150/mbf for poplar and oak saw logs but I'm not 100% sure.

I would process the low grade into firewood, which sells for $175/cord in my area.
QUOTE]

The poplar is low money wood in general....but if the oak is red oak, and it's a good size and grade....then selling it @ $150 delivered in is crazy insane.
Good veneer should fetch at least $600 a thousand, and I know that up here top grade Veneer is well over $1,000 a thousand.
Go visit as many hardwood buyers as you can and get price sheets.
Ask the log trucker I suggested you find where HE would market it...no one knows more about where to sell wood for a good price than the guy in the seat of a truck, especially if he is a logging contractor too.
If there's a good market for the hardwood pulp, sell most of it to them. You can't be wasting time doing firewood on the landing, and trucking it home to process is a profit killer. A 75 acre lot that is reasonably stocked with hardwood will give 4-5 cords of hardwood pulp an acre...you'll end up with a lot more than you can possibly process.

Just trying to offer my advice based on almost 20 years of doing this..

 

[056kid]

Its alittle more involved than you think. .


Its a great thought & all, but I cut timber around thoes parts around 3 years. Unless you are getting over 6000 feet & over 160,000 in pulp to the mill every day you is gonna loose mucho dollars..

 

[huskyhank]

I know nothing of the logging business but I do know something about business. I don't see any way for anyone to make any money with low grade wood, cutting and hauling it at those prices. I think you'd be better off selling it as firewood.

Selling your services with a higher added value is the way to make some money for your hard work. Manage their woodlot, clean it out for better growth of the value trees, cut the good stuff and haul that yourself when you know in advance you can get good money for it. Be surgical, go for the heart of the watermelon. You're used to doing "custom work" in town so figure out a way to make yourself a "custom logger".

And don't buy anything the first year. Use what you got before you bust yourself. Good luck.

 

[Oldtimer]

Its alittle more involved than you think. .


Its a great thought & all, but I cut timber around thoes parts around 3 years. Unless you are getting over 6000 feet & over 160,000 in pulp to the mill every day you is gonna loose mucho dollars..

This is why I advised him to get a lot of price sheets, and to get a skidder, and to BUY IT RIGHT. If you buy it too high, you have no one to blame but yourself. You're better off not cutting the wood at all than cutting it for free..

 

[Oldtimer]

I know nothing of the logging business but I do know something about business. I don't see any way for anyone to make any money with low grade wood, cutting and hauling it at those prices. I think you'd be better off selling it as firewood.

Selling your services with a higher added value is the way to make some money for your hard work. Manage their woodlot, clean it out for better growth of the value trees, cut the good stuff and haul that yourself when you know in advance you can get good money for it. Be surgical, go for the heart of the watermelon. You're used to doing "custom work" in town so figure out a way to make yourself a "custom logger".

And don't buy anything the first year. Use what you got before you bust yourself. Good luck.

Firewood requires a strong back, and a weak mind. Firewood is what you should do for a little mad money, and that's it. It takes too much time unless you have a big processor. By the time you buy it, work it up, deliver it, and factor in all the related costs....you're working HARD for $20 an hour tops.
Like I said, 75 acres will produce 150 cords of pulp easily. Sell it to the mill.
Do firewood with the tree work residuals. That way, you are being PAID to haul it off.

 

[huskyhank]

That makes sense.
I was thinking more like "no work through the winter" so firewood might be better than sitting on your ass. Might not unless you had a well established sales channel to move it.

 

[Oldtimer]

OK, one last thing and I'll Shut The F up..

Unless you have a full time employee with worker's comp all in place...you'll do best alone. 99 times out of 100 a "worker" in the woods can't even produce enough to pay his own paycheck / bennies...much less make you money above and beyond that. It's a dangerous game, so let people know where and when you'll be...and be careful! Look 5 times, cut 1 time.

 

[Oldtimer]

That makes sense.
I was thinking more like "no work through the winter" so firewood might be better than sitting on your ass. Might not unless you had a well established sales channel to move it.

Winter is the very best time to log. Ground's usually firmer, the temps are cooler so you can work harder, and if there's snow it's a GOOD thing. The wood skids easier, and there's far less dirt in the bark to dull the saws.
Also, the mills generally will stock up in winter because the wood keeps better and the mud season restricts flow.

 

[huskyhank]

Original poster wrote:

"I would continue to do tree work March-Nov and log through the winter."

It looked like he is taking up slack in his work schedule.

Oldtimer, I agree that winter is the time to be in the woods. Certainly in the southeast.

 

[Oldtimer]

Original poster wrote:

"I would continue to do tree work March-Nov and log through the winter."

It looked like he is taking up slack in his work schedule.

Oldtimer, I agree that winter is the time to be in the woods. Certainly in the southeast.

I get you.
But like I said, he'll end up doing a LOT more logging.....IF he's good at it. :greenchainsaw:
If not, he can always sell the skidder and stick to tree work.

 

[056kid]

Winter is the very best time to log. Ground's usually firmer, the temps are cooler so you can work harder, and if there's snow it's a GOOD thing. The wood skids easier, and there's far less dirt in the bark to dull the saws.
Also, the mills generally will stock up in winter because the wood keeps better and the mud season restricts flow.

I agree with you some. winter is nicer as long as the ground stays frozen ALL DAY. but as far as snow, cmon man, if you have done any logging you aught to know that snow is worse than rain for an appalachian man. Skidders arent worth #### unless they have fluid wheels & several thousand dollars worth of chains...

I know that right now Shenandoah hardwood is buying bare minimum. Bosses wofe told me that they have allmost no logs on the yard. .



It just aint the best time to get into the buisness. . .

 

[Oldtimer]

I agree with you some. winter is nicer as long as the ground stays frozen ALL DAY. but as far as snow, cmon man, if you have done any logging you aught to know that snow is worse than rain for an appalachian man. Skidders arent worth #### unless they have fluid wheels & several thousand dollars worth of chains...

I know that right now Shenandoah hardwood is buying bare minimum. Bosses wofe told me that they have allmost no logs on the yard. .



It just aint the best time to get into the buisness. . .

A skidder without chains is just an overgrown lawn tractor. Logging in the snow is where it's at as long as it's not more than 3' deep..

 

[056kid]

I dont know about that bro.

maybe on flat ground. We where forced to quit all together year before last cause of snow. Even if the skidder could get it to the landing, rolling a 100,000 lb truck down a narrow north face hairpined pig trail for 11 miles on a sheet of ice is alittle dangerous..

I love snow, just not when Im trying to make money..

 

[cedar]

Thanks for all the advice. Self-loading log trucks are not too common in this area. Most outfits have a loader on the landing and haul with a tractor trailer. That's why I was thinking a tractor with bucket grapple might have some advantage to a skidder.

 

[056kid]

there are many places a skidder will go that a 4x4 tractor will break loose & procede to tumble down the mountain.


My boss has an older Timber jack 380 that is in need of motor, wheels, & winch bands. it has a grapple, tranny(it holds, needs rebuilt), hoses, blade, doors, everything else as far as i know unless he has robbed it of parts... you could pick it up for cheap. . . Hes in Big Island VA