Tree-to-Ground Guying

[treeseer]

In your post (#32) pic 1 where you show the root flare. There is some black sooty stuff

Good eye; my bad, that was another tree. the stuff looks nothing like ganoderma; it is advanced hypoxylon and yes it is bad. But no, that tree is staying, but on a close watch. Decay can be managed, up to a point.

here's the oak's flare. someone in australia--where i already posted this--said the burl is caused by soil compaction which shows the tree is in bad shape. amazing how easy it is to jump to misdiagnosis when the saw is the tool of choice.

pic 3 shows the location of the defect

 

[D Mc]

Well, obviously our eyes aren't that good. So was the black, sooty stuff on the other picture that of Hypoxylon deustum, Dr. Dendro?

We haven't heard of burls forming due to soil compaction, but we are constantly amazed at what we don't know. I wonder if TD could have been thinking of bottle butt swelling?

Also, after viewing the revised pictures and realizing that there is very little concern for whole tree failure, I would alter my initial recommendation to a canopy support system designed primarily to support the damaged area. This would also create, in effect, a "safety net" to keep the top from hitting the house if it did fail. This should be a static system designed to reduce movement in the damaged area.

I see no benefit for the ground guy if there is no concern about whole tree failure and potential negative effects on the damaged area.

Very often when asking for free advise, you get what you pay for.

D and S Mc

 

[elmnut]

tie a butt hitch using Cobra(dampener installed)on all suspect leaders/limbs in the upper portion of the tree, when the limb/leader fails, the cobra butt hitch will prevent damage to property by keeping the limb suspended until you can climb up and remove it. This may allow the guy cable to be placed under the defect. If it sounds like I don't have a clue, please keep it to yourself, I have someone here to tell me already!

 

[treeseer]

elmnut I hate to tell you this but you do have a clue; not a bad idea. But the defect is not the limbs, but the middle of the trunk. If the trunk fails, the tree is trashed. How do we prevent that?

D&S yeah that is it, the Terrible Tar. Shoulda added a paragraph or two onto that tale about the many faces of hypoxylon but i was worried about word count, st[pid of me. In the April issue, tell me if the solution and remedies are clear enough to be useful, okay? I may write another for later this year or 2009, but others need to do some too. Keep your eyes peeled for MT cases eh?

"I would alter my initial recommendation to a canopy support system designed primarily to support the damaged area. This would also create, in effect, a "safety net" to keep the top from hitting the house if it did fail. This should be a static system designed to reduce movement in the damaged area."

I cannot visualize such a system. The damaged area is from 20 to 30' off the ground. Where would it connect to, but the ground?

"Very often when asking for free advise, you get what you pay for. :blush:

That's what I tell prospective clients who choose to rely on free estimates/sales pitches.

 

[jomoco]

Ok Treeseer, you stubborn crazy kinda guy, I did a bit of research today to help you with your project, and came up with this:

EBSCO Spring Company 918-628-1680

Safety Draw Bar Extension Springs

Engineer: Mike Thibert

Now Mike can make you a spring to suit your specific application, but it may be a bit pricey.

However, a sneaky way around this would be to get a McMaster Carr catalog
and go to the spring section in which they have a standard Safety Draw Bar Extension Spring rated at 370 lb. Order 3-4 of these springs for less than 100 bucks and attach them between 2 triangular forged steel nylon web rings.

This will be a cheap way of meeting your application criteria with very weather resistant off the shelf hardware items adaptable to an inline wire rope scenario.

If you decide to go this route, I suggest you also install an inline failsafe cable with a couple of cable grips, the length of the failsafe cable should barely exceed the maximum extension length of the spring assembly.

I have a soft spot for treemen that venture into the unknown realms of engineering to achieve their goals. Your project is somewhat similar to one of mine that uses inline hydraulic cylinders in a tension scenario to capture power from large trees swaying in the wind to charge a hydraulic acummulator loop and produce intermittent bursts of clean electric power in forests.

Keep us up to date on your progress with this unusual tree guying effort of yours, I find it interesting.

jomoco

 

[D Mc]

Jomoco, I read your post when it first appeared and just sat on it and let the thought of it roll around a bit. The utilization of a tree's rocking motion in the wind to create electricity, I think is pure genius! Whether it worked or not! Even if it is totally infeasiable. It is definitely thinking outside the box and I think you are underappreciated!

Treeseer, Being the arborist on site you are the only one to make the qualified call and ANSI doesn't cut you very much slack to experiment. You are dealing with three subjects that require protection: the tree, the homeowner and yourself. Good luck and keep us posted.

D and S Mc

 

[pdqdl]

At last. A solution to kill this thread.

tie a butt hitch using Cobra(dampener installed)on all suspect leaders/limbs in the upper portion of the tree, when the limb/leader fails, the cobra butt hitch will prevent damage to property by keeping the limb suspended until you can climb up and remove it. This may allow the guy cable to be placed under the defect. If it sounds like I don't have a clue, please keep it to yourself, I have someone here to tell me already!

Yes ! I like that idea. Nix all the crazy ground-anchor ideas.

Treeseer seems to reject every suggestion except some sort of cabling solution, and yours would probably provide the necessary risk mitigation.

Be sure to sell an annual inspection with a plan to provide "relief" to allow continued growth in all branches, so that the tree can continue to provide profits.

 

[treeseer]

ANSI allows ground guying.

How will supporting the branches prevent failure at the defect, in the middle of the stem?

 

[pdqdl]

ANSI allows ground guying.

How will supporting the branches prevent failure at the defect, in the middle of the stem?

I don't think it would, nor do I recommend it. If it is unsound wood, some of us think at least the dangerous parts should be removed. If it is not unsound, then why are you trying to ground anchor it ?

 

[bigshea13]

geez treeseer. from the read on this post and posts round the world you dont want advise you just want someone to agree with you. good luck finding a puppet.

 

[treeseer]

If it is unsound wood, some of us think at least the dangerous parts should be removed. ?

So you propose to remove the top half of the tree, because the middle of the stem has lost strength? I'm not sure what you mean by "unsound".

If removal was the only solution to structural problems, all structures would have to be removed, because they all have problems.

We just had a major wind and rain storm a couple of hours ago. No call from the tree owner--the trunk was strong enough.

 

[moray]

A nerdy calculation

A very interesting problem, treeseer! I was especially intrigued by TreeCo's comment that the cable might make things worse.

If you consider the tree to be a beam standing on end, anchored in the ground, with a defect 30 feet off the ground, and subject to horizontal wind loads, I think it quickly becomes apparent that the cable should dramatically help.

First imagine the tree in its neutral position with no wind. With a camera or our imaginations we take careful note of the exact position of the defect and the future anchor point for the cable. Assume the anchor point is placed at the center of force for possible wind loads. This would be a kind of balance point for the wind loads above the defect, so that, just considering that upper section, the wind force above the anchor and below the anchor would be the same.

Now imagine a wind load of 1000 lbs above the defect that will just about cause failure. This produces a shear force at the defect of 1000 lbs. It also produces a moment at the defect that we can't easily specify. But the camera comes to the rescue. We snap a photo under this extreme wind load and note the defect has moved 1 inch from its neutral position, and the future cable anchor has moved 6 inches. I made up the numbers, obviously, but they seem reasonable. The difference between these two--5 inches--is a rough measure of the bending force or moment that is trying to break the defect. It is worth noting that much of the 1 inch movement of the stem at the defect is due to the wind load on the upper section. If that section were missing, the same wind would move the trunk less, maybe much less, than the one inch we observe.

Now install the cable and crank up the wind again till there is a 1000 lb load on the upper section. The shear force on the defect is now close to zero since the cable is stopping all motion of the anchor point and taking the full load. How much does the defect move? Something less than one inch. Since the anchor point hasn't moved at all, the bending at the defect is a small fraction of what it was without the cable. What's more, it is now bending in the opposite direction, away from the house!

It should be noted that the cable does add a large vertical load to the stem. In the case of our 1000 lb. wind load and a 45 degree cable, the added vertical load would also be 1000 lbs.

I can't claim that this simple anaysis is a good fit for your actual tree, but it seems to suggest, as a first approximation, that the cable guy would do a good job of mitigating the hazard and not make it worse. (IMHO).

 

[treeseer]

A very interesting problem, treeseer! I was especially intrigued by TreeCo's comment that the cable might make things worse.

If you consider the tree to be a beam standing on end, anchored in the ground, with a defect 30 feet off the ground, and subject to horizontal wind loads, I think it quickly becomes apparent that the cable should dramatically help.

First imagine the tree in its neutral position with no wind. With a camera or our imaginations we take careful note of the exact position of the defect and the future anchor point for the cable. Assume the anchor point is placed at the center of force for possible wind loads. This would be a kind of balance point for the wind loads above the defect, so that, just considering that upper section, the wind force above the anchor and below the anchor would be the same.

Now imagine a wind load of 1000 lbs above the defect that will just about cause failure. This produces a shear force at the defect of 1000 lbs. It also produces a moment at the defect that we can't easily specify. But the camera comes to the rescue. We snap a photo under this extreme wind load and note the defect has moved 1 inch from its neutral position, and the future cable anchor has moved 6 inches. I made up the numbers, obviously, but they seem reasonable. The difference between these two--5 inches--is a rough measure of the bending force or moment that is trying to break the defect. It is worth noting that much of the 1 inch movement of the stem at the defect is due to the wind load on the upper section. If that section were missing, the same wind would move the trunk less, maybe much less, than the one inch we observe.

Now install the cable and crank up the wind again till there is a 1000 lb load on the upper section. The shear force on the defect is now close to zero since the cable is stopping all motion of the anchor point and taking the full load. How much does the defect move? Something less than one inch. Since the anchor point hasn't moved at all, the bending at the defect is a small fraction of what it was without the cable. What's more, it is now bending in the opposite direction, away from the house!

It should be noted that the cable does add a large vertical load to the stem. In the case of our 1000 lb. wind load and a 45 degree cable, the added vertical load would also be 1000 lbs.

I can't claim that this simple anaysis is a good fit for your actual tree, but it seems to suggest, as a first approximation, that the cable guy would do a good job of mitigating the hazard and not make it worse. (IMHO).

Yup. That xylem is H A R D. Vertical load is not an issue anyway, because the target would not be affected if the stem collapsed.

All that, and I didn't move my lips, and I sure can't puppeteer someone from 1000 miles away.

 

[Ekka]

Treeseer, my trips to Australia seem to have been plagued by stormy seas so my discussions will stay here for the time being.

Oh come on now D Mc and S Mc, wall4 aint keeping you out is it?

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Looks like a good candidate for a future treehouse perhaps, once the problem child is removed.

It has to go anyway, why not make the best of it?

This thread has been an interesting read. It's fun to try and figure out how one might save it, but this just isn't the place for it. Not this tree.

Perhaps some of these brainstorms will pay off for future trees, but this unit ought to be dealt with taking into account all factors and variables.

Treeseer, have you seen the movie Frequency?

I'd rather see a young boy along with friends and siblings playing in a safe tree house, than what could go down here. Pun intended.

Just my two cents, just looking for the win win here. Peace.

P.S. Hey, at least I didn't tell you to trim it at the ground.

 

[bigshea13]

Yup. That xylem is H A R D. Vertical load is not an issue anyway, because the target would not be affected if the stem collapsed.

All that, and I didn't move my lips, and I sure can't puppeteer someone from 1000 miles away.

strings are long these days. id suggest you buy a lottery ticket

 

[masterarbor]

one of the better ideas so far...

tie a butt hitch using Cobra(dampener installed)on all suspect leaders/limbs in the upper portion of the tree, when the limb/leader fails, the cobra butt hitch will prevent damage to property by keeping the limb suspended until you can climb up and remove it. This may allow the guy cable to be placed under the defect. If it sounds like I don't have a clue, please keep it to yourself, I have someone here to tell me already!

I'm wondering...what does the wound look like on the other side? what direction is the wind load most common?

 

[masterarbor]

treeseer, I think we all admire your dedication to preserving the tree. please do not allow yourself to get too defensive however... what you have here is a very difficult situation and a tough call. I do admit that the ground guying solution is probably a band aid at best. Might I suggest that you inform the home owner in writing and sent registered mail that the tree should be removed. Then, off record let them know that they are assuming all risk if they decide to keep the tree. Whatever mitigation you do after that short of major weight reduction is simply feel good measures.

Good Luck