Tricks to felling small diameter trees?
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Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Don't condescend me with your dribble!
My statement is dead true, just your comprehension is struggling (nothing new).
Use your narrow tapered wedges in the same application as I was cutting means strife, you will be butted up against the hinge in no time, but you don't address that you take a different cut .... pretty illogical.
"Hey buddy, you're nuts using that ratchet jack, I use this hoist ... therefore you only know basics and a liar"
Difference is I got a stack of wedges, even plastic ones, and I know the techniques, videos in fact not a bunch of 20 pages of BS loaded with caveats.
The 1/4 cut is a legitimate trained cut, a method, users need to be aware of the pitfalls which is narrow wedges, it's better to have higher ramping wedges. It's fast to cut and fell using it ... but you'd perhaps not know eh Mr One Trick Magoo.
Your brain rather than accept and understand switches to argument, discrediting and saying there's better or other ways. Sure there is, I know them, but the 1/4 cut is just that, it works, is fast and we are talking small trees not 15ton+ monsters.
Keep up your BS, we're getting a good laugh.
I'd have more tricks up my sleeve than you'd have in your entire wardrobe. :greenchainsaw:
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Let's review
I have no problem with the quarter cut. It has its place.
The issue here is Ekka stated; "Also small dia trees require steeper ramped wedges so they dont butt up into the hinge wood."[/I]
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That is not true.
Briefly:
"The wedge will not butt up against the hinge because it can't. THE HINGE HAS BEEN CUT THROUGH THE CENTER TO ALLOW FOR A LONGER WEDGE."
The part I left out was failing to say "that means a short wedge isn't required."
Sorry.
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Ekka:
I'm not aware of anyone on this site having ever called you a liar.
However, your comprehension rate is suspect.
This possibly related to things you haven't seen or tried.
I have no problem with the quarter cut. It has its place.
The issue here is Ekka stated; "Also small dia trees require steeper ramped wedges so they dont butt up into the hinge wood."[/I]
----------------
That is not true.
Briefly:
"The wedge will not butt up against the hinge because it can't. THE HINGE HAS BEEN CUT THROUGH THE CENTER TO ALLOW FOR A LONGER WEDGE."
The part I left out was failing to say "that means a short wedge isn't required."
Sorry.
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Ekka:
I'm not aware of anyone on this site having ever called you a liar.
However, your comprehension rate is suspect.
This possibly related to things you haven't seen or tried.
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
For everyone else
The bore through has its limitations just like every other single cutting technique.
Mostly this relates to diameter and necessary holding wood in the hinge.
A second major concern is that it requires cutting on more than one side of the tree. This option may not always be available from safety and slope concerns. It also requires the skill to safely plunge cut in any given tree species and wood condition.
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In addition to the previously stated advantages:
{"1) No wedge damage by jamming up against the back of the hinge wood,
2) Don't need to pack an assortment of wedges,
3) Gentler taper do a better job of lifting and less likely to pop out."},
I'd like to emphasize the second bore just below the first where two wedges work in tandem. This stacking method also reduces the likelihood of a wedge popping out. Each wedge is held by most woods better (top and bottom) than any other multiple wedge method, (even angled), without with dirt or chips. If any cutter really wants to almost eliminate wedges popping out do this stacking of bore cuts with just a little dirt for each.
This needs to be emphasized in this discussion as the short/steep wedges really want to pop out even with dirt/chips.
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Perhaps an appreciation for what AS can offer is in order for the general readership.
Look over all the techniques you see discussed here. Bounce the best of them off the most skilled cutters in your area. Try what they suggest.
No big deal.
Remember. No one has put out a complete guide to falling techniques used around the world. That would take about a dozen senior skilled cutters all from different locations. Until that happens, sort through what you can on AS in addition to your collection of falling books.
All the Best
The bore through has its limitations just like every other single cutting technique.
Mostly this relates to diameter and necessary holding wood in the hinge.
A second major concern is that it requires cutting on more than one side of the tree. This option may not always be available from safety and slope concerns. It also requires the skill to safely plunge cut in any given tree species and wood condition.
--------------
In addition to the previously stated advantages:
{"1) No wedge damage by jamming up against the back of the hinge wood,
2) Don't need to pack an assortment of wedges,
3) Gentler taper do a better job of lifting and less likely to pop out."},
I'd like to emphasize the second bore just below the first where two wedges work in tandem. This stacking method also reduces the likelihood of a wedge popping out. Each wedge is held by most woods better (top and bottom) than any other multiple wedge method, (even angled), without with dirt or chips. If any cutter really wants to almost eliminate wedges popping out do this stacking of bore cuts with just a little dirt for each.
This needs to be emphasized in this discussion as the short/steep wedges really want to pop out even with dirt/chips.
--------------
Perhaps an appreciation for what AS can offer is in order for the general readership.
Look over all the techniques you see discussed here. Bounce the best of them off the most skilled cutters in your area. Try what they suggest.
No big deal.
Remember. No one has put out a complete guide to falling techniques used around the world. That would take about a dozen senior skilled cutters all from different locations. Until that happens, sort through what you can on AS in addition to your collection of falling books.
All the Best
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scotclayshooter
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ok lets say you did the bore through and used your long wedge, Isnt the wedge going to jam in the hinge if the tree does not go over?
The aluminium short steep ramped wedges i have seen have barbs on them to stop them jumping out!
The aluminium short steep ramped wedges i have seen have barbs on them to stop them jumping out!
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
No & Yes
The bore goes through to the lay side. All the way through.
No possibility of hinge contact.
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I haven't seen any of those barbs that I think you're describing in years. There used to be some on a few of the plastic wedges we had.
They were kind of rounded in shape.
When they were only on one side the wedges could still be stacked.
The shorter plastic wedges (5 1/2 inches) we usually use have a ridging that helps but when fighting a good weighted lean in solid wood they often don't hold. Hardwoods are much tougher in these diameters.
The bore goes through to the lay side. All the way through.
No possibility of hinge contact.
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I haven't seen any of those barbs that I think you're describing in years. There used to be some on a few of the plastic wedges we had.
They were kind of rounded in shape.
When they were only on one side the wedges could still be stacked.
The shorter plastic wedges (5 1/2 inches) we usually use have a ridging that helps but when fighting a good weighted lean in solid wood they often don't hold. Hardwoods are much tougher in these diameters.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Clearly your ARROGANCE precedes your intellect.
You again have changed the application, HELLO, did you see me bore through the hinge? No.
So you change the cuts, bore through, that is not the same.
Smoke and Mirrors, get ya hand off it mate you're getting blisters!
Then I would say, steeper ramped wedges also prevent you having to bore valuable hinge wood.
Again, we are talking small/narrow trees. I have wedged over 80' slash pines and 60' (2500kg) palms no worries with that. Like I said, learn to read though pal.
Thanks for summing up your abilitys.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
You changed
Ekka:
You're the one that has changed.
We didn't see you bore through the hinge because you didn't understand that was an option. No big deal, you hadn't figured out that a quarter cut technique is generally secondary to the basic back cut before a face cut otherwise you would have listed it.
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"Then I would say, steeper ramped wedges also prevent you having to bore valuable hinge wood." That is a good point. Thank you for remaking it. There are cautions with each of these techniques. If there isn't good holding wood on both corners essentially all of these options are off the table.
In the future I'd hope that you pick up on those caveats sooner.
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With regard to blisters, you are the palm expert.
Ekka:
You're the one that has changed.
We didn't see you bore through the hinge because you didn't understand that was an option. No big deal, you hadn't figured out that a quarter cut technique is generally secondary to the basic back cut before a face cut otherwise you would have listed it.
----------------
"Then I would say, steeper ramped wedges also prevent you having to bore valuable hinge wood." That is a good point. Thank you for remaking it. There are cautions with each of these techniques. If there isn't good holding wood on both corners essentially all of these options are off the table.
In the future I'd hope that you pick up on those caveats sooner.
---------------
With regard to blisters, you are the palm expert.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Here you again, so now not only have I have changed something but I dont understand something!
You must have auditioned for the movie Dumb and Dumber! :monkey:
Stop and think readers, be very careful. This is a public forum, and from chaff cutters to firemen they all get a chance to write.
See, Ole Smoke and Mirrors has changed a cut or procedure and then feels he can run others into the ground, assumes they are stupid or telling lies.
But that is because ole Smoke and Mirrors has self elevated his rank within his own head.
He'll move the goal posts around to suit himself as neccessary to accomodate his ideas, and then strangely even attack and put others down.
Shortly I will be an official trainer, not only assessing peoples felling skills but also seeing what they know or are capable of if things go wrong.
In the event that you do the 1/4 cut which is designed for small trees, it's clear that all the hinge is best. The problem with small trees is you cannot get a bar width and a wedge behind it into the tree, the tree is simply too small a dia to do that.
Some solutions which work great are stacking wedges so there's more taper. That's a great idea for people like Smoke and Mirrors who seem to only have one size fits all wedges in their kit.
I have an assortment, but genuinely love the aluminium high ramped wedges, I even use them on the big trees and you can really lay into them with a maul if need be.Now imagine yourself in a situation where you thought the tree would go over and belted the wedge in, the wedge is now butted up against the hinge wood but the tree isn't going. What would you do?
Well, who says you only have one wedge in? You can wedge the other side of the 1/4 cut (or any cut frankly) too, but you now have a large gap there due to the first wedge in, so you start with a double stack or high ramped wedge. Soon as this new wedge is lifting the other wedges can be pulled out and also stacked ....
Whether this is with the 1/4 cut technique or any other technique what if the tree "sits back" on your saw? So again, you can bore cut and wedge.
These solutions aren't just solutions to one technique (as Smoke and Mirrors suggests) nor does it make the 1/4 cut technique defective. And as you can see solutions abound, so what Smoke and Mirrors has suggested is a solution to a problem that might occur (in more than one example/technique), and it's just one solution, there are other solutions like felling bars/levers, roping and even a pole like some-one suggested.
Thin trees can also be tall trees. Tall thin trees do get pushed around by the slightest breezes. Palms fall into these categories and I have 1/4 cut thousands, like a production line, never ever had a wedge shoot out, never ever had to bore my way out of a jam either. If for whatever reason extra support is required then rope it, clear and simple, but as far as fast production you wont beat that technique. Slash pines abound around here too, often they average maybe 12" dia but are up to 80' tall. When I get these, or any tree compared to a palm, it's better. The wood is better and things are a lot more stable/reliable. Pines hang on great, very flexible too. In most of my videos you'll see me using high ramped aluminium wedges, ever seen one shoot out? Nope. Eucalypts here, often the Ht to DBH ratio is around 45:1, that means a 1' dia tree is 45' tall and 2' dia tree 90' tall. Heavy timber, the high ramped wedges are great here too, with the shallower wedges I found I belted them in till they were flush, simply not enough height on them for the lift, that is the conditions here, we're semi tropical and many trees grow tall for DBH, they grow nearly all year around.
And even if Smoke and Mirrors or Clarence is not allowed to use one, refuses to use one etc who gives a **** really, fact is I can and do, lucky me I guess while they miss out.
Knowing various techniques is wise. Knowing how to come unstuck for any technique is also wise.
And in summary, there's no caveats, just common sense and procedures for getting out of a jam in many felling techniques.
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Suggestion
To the casual observer;
Consider all the cuts mentioned.
The 1/4 cut can be fine.
As Ekker stated it is pretty well limited to smallest diameters.
Oftentimes with straight and gentle backleaners it is replaced best by the back-cut prior to face. Keep it simple - make all your cuts from the same side, avoid risk on the off-side, give yourself the ability to work on slope, better hinge rear cut, less time in the danger zone and the back-cut prior to the face is just easy.
This is important even when cutting on a lawn.
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Then when the diameter gets too big for the 1/4 cut to be the optimal cut, consider the bore through if solid holding wood is available on the corners.
-----------
Back to the smaller diameters. If the tree is light just cut normally, leave holding wood all the way across the back, let the tree settle on the saw. With your cuts being low you have a decent lever to push with your hand (saw if off - bar rail pinching is not a problem here because we specified lighter trees), and watch the top.
No saw noise, looking up is always good and it’s easy now.
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There is always a variety of plunge the rear tools that can work once you get a little bigger diameters too.
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Just remember that there are two absolute facts in regard to this thread.
1) The wedge does not need to hit the back of the hinge. You are making a mistake as a cutter if you do that or set up to do that. Look over the different methods outlined in this thread to avoid wedge damage.
2) If you can't get along with folks on the internet or in your marriage you are not likely to succeed in logical discussions.
To the casual observer;
Consider all the cuts mentioned.
The 1/4 cut can be fine.
As Ekker stated it is pretty well limited to smallest diameters.
Oftentimes with straight and gentle backleaners it is replaced best by the back-cut prior to face. Keep it simple - make all your cuts from the same side, avoid risk on the off-side, give yourself the ability to work on slope, better hinge rear cut, less time in the danger zone and the back-cut prior to the face is just easy.
This is important even when cutting on a lawn.
------------
Then when the diameter gets too big for the 1/4 cut to be the optimal cut, consider the bore through if solid holding wood is available on the corners.
-----------
Back to the smaller diameters. If the tree is light just cut normally, leave holding wood all the way across the back, let the tree settle on the saw. With your cuts being low you have a decent lever to push with your hand (saw if off - bar rail pinching is not a problem here because we specified lighter trees), and watch the top.
No saw noise, looking up is always good and it’s easy now.
-------------
There is always a variety of plunge the rear tools that can work once you get a little bigger diameters too.
--------------
Just remember that there are two absolute facts in regard to this thread.
1) The wedge does not need to hit the back of the hinge. You are making a mistake as a cutter if you do that or set up to do that. Look over the different methods outlined in this thread to avoid wedge damage.
2) If you can't get along with folks on the internet or in your marriage you are not likely to succeed in logical discussions.
Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ekka, I am glad to see you state a good case for the high metal wedges. I use them too, for exactly the stuff you are talking about. I appreciate your expertise and the time you put in making instructional videos and posting on this site. Not trying to kiss @ss, just calling it like I see it.
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