advenseeker
New Member
we have a kid at work who always undercuts at least halfway through the tree if not more. when i asked him why he did that he said it helps the pull. is this the right way of thinking or is it wrong?
under cut
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Grace Tree
Impossible Access
Hit him in the head to get his attention and then send him to this site.
Logging eTool - Making the Cuts - Kinds of Notches
If he doesn't improve then don't get close to him when he's felling trees.
Phil
RandyMac
Stiff Member
What is so terribly wrong with a facecut sawn about half the diameter?
Grace Tree
Impossible Access
Nothing if that's proper for the instance but he used the words ALWAYS and AT LEAST which made me think he needs to think about things.
Regards,
Phil
RandyMac
Stiff Member
Your field has different needs and methods, as for me, 90% of my trees were sawn nearly halfway.
advenseeker
New Member
where and why would you use this type of cut.
RandyMac
Stiff Member
It is useful with old growth conifers, they are big and sometimes very tall. You get a longer hingewood area and room to whittle out the exact type of facecut for direction of fall and control of the tree all the way to the ground.
Grace Tree
Impossible Access
When we're dropping a stem with the canopy off where there's little weight to influence the fall then we'd probably face cut 50% or more.
Phil
+1 I agree. I use this a lot. If you need to "swing" a tree as much as possible you need as much holding wood you can get, in my opinion. So if your face goes to the widest point in the tree you have that much more holdin wood.
Carburetorless
ArboristSite Guru
There are instances where that won't work, and there are methods for handling those instances.
treemandan
Tree Freak
That is a great way to explain how to cut a notch, no matter what instruction manual you are using, just place the hinge in the fatest area.
Greener
ArboristSite Operative
I agree with what someone else said here: stay away from "always" and "at least" when you're talking undercut, but the technique mentioned is very useful for spars (brushed out trees) and straight, tall conifers.
ozzy42
Addicted to ArboristSite
I never really understood the 1/3 face cut thing myself????? I like the hinge at the fattest part in most cases.
Mo longer hinge is mo gooder IMO.
Are we talking undercut or face cut here? To me and undercut is when I'm dropping limbs, face cut is cutting my notch. Having said that, I would agree with a deep notch, and definitely disagree with too deep an undercut, that' a saw pincher. I also definitely agree that always and never are dangerous words, every tree is different.
I agree with the always and never. As far as too deep of a undercut ,"on a limb", it depends. If im really trying to get a good snap cut ill back chain my under cut to the point right before my bar gets pinched, then pull out and back chain a little more, and maybe once again. This depends on species and dia of the limb obviously. But, i have had to use the hand saw to free up the chain saw more times than i would like to admit.
Everybody seems to be overlooking a key word here. The OP said "pull", and he was in Ohio. I think that rules out old growth conifers. If it was a timber harvesting operation, presumably it wouldn't be a youngster being questioned by someone in arborist101, either.
Unless I am mistaken, whatever kind of tree work is being done, they are fixing a rope in the tree and pulling it over. If this is the case, then it is certainly true that a wider face cut will make it an easier pull. By making a deeper face cut, the center of gravity is shifted toward the direction of fall, and it makes the tree easier to pull every time.
There may, however, be other very good reasons for not cutting a deep face cut.
It sounds to me like your tree cutter might know a little bit about what he is doing. You need to learn more yourself, just in case he doesn't.
BTW: I didn't care for the "Logging eTool - Making the Cuts" reference above. It is over-simplified, doesn't explain too much about why to use each cut, and leaves a whole lot of other felling options out. A little knowledge can be dangerous
Unless I am mistaken, whatever kind of tree work is being done, they are fixing a rope in the tree and pulling it over. If this is the case, then it is certainly true that a wider face cut will make it an easier pull. By making a deeper face cut, the center of gravity is shifted toward the direction of fall, and it makes the tree easier to pull every time.
There may, however, be other very good reasons for not cutting a deep face cut.
It sounds to me like your tree cutter might know a little bit about what he is doing. You need to learn more yourself, just in case he doesn't.
BTW: I didn't care for the "Logging eTool - Making the Cuts" reference above. It is over-simplified, doesn't explain too much about why to use each cut, and leaves a whole lot of other felling options out. A little knowledge can be dangerous
The 1/3rd face cut is for use when you are wedging a tree over. By creating a wider back cut, you dramatically increase the leverage the wedge has to lift the tree in the direction of fall. If you don't cut as much as 1/3rd, you are likely to leave a weak hinge that breaks prematurely and the tree falls uncontrolled in the direction it prefers.
If no wedge is in use, the 1/3rd rule is more of a hindrance to felling a tree safely than it is help. It is blind adherence to oversimplified rules that lead to emergencies.
This is some of the best advice I've seen on this forum. I quit coming to this forum because I've seen too much poor or bad advice. After 40 plus years, and 4 generations of the family in the business, as a "general" statement, a deep notch is the way to go. My Dad would make us break a lot of notch wood. The biggest trees we ever came across were in the 4' range, and he would make a deep, wide open notch, then make us break 2 to 4 inches of wood. A shallow, narrow notch will make the notch close up too quick and cause the tree top "pop" the notch wood free, before the log is committed to the direction of fall. This is a general statement. There maybe times a shallow notch is used, a tree that is known to be hollow, or sometimes a lighting struck tree. I took down a lightning struck White Pine last year. I made a deep face cut, then started my top cut of the notch. As I was making the top cut, pieces of wood started falling out of the notch cut, like pieces of firewood. This was about a 60' trunk, I had already topped the tree out. My original plan was to start at the bottom and strip the limbs as I went up. When I got to about the 60' point the wind started blowing and I could see daylight through the trunk as it twisted. Change of plan, quick. I put a tag line as high up as I could get with a pole saw and dumped the top in the yard. Left another tag line at the top of the stub and got out fast. When the log hit the ground it just blew apart. It had been a solid beautifull saw log. Now it looked like a pile of firewood.
Sorry for the long reply. I just like a deep notch. If you asked me how to throw the lighting struck White Pine above, I'd say don't throw it. Get a bucket truck and strip, it then chunk it down in firewood size pieces. Anyway, always be carefull, and as the carpenters say, "measure twice, cut once". Use that same rule "think twice, cut once", Joe.
Sorry for the long reply. I just like a deep notch. If you asked me how to throw the lighting struck White Pine above, I'd say don't throw it. Get a bucket truck and strip, it then chunk it down in firewood size pieces. Anyway, always be carefull, and as the carpenters say, "measure twice, cut once". Use that same rule "think twice, cut once", Joe.
RandyMac
Stiff Member
You don't want to be known as a fiber puller, do we?
