Correct the oil Stihl sells here doesn't have any Castrol logo or writing on any of the bottles.
UNOFFICIAL 2-Stroke OIL Brand Specification/Standard Thread
- Thread starter one.man.band
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Correct the oil Stihl sells here doesn't have any Castrol logo or writing on any of the bottles.
After looking at all the info on this oil I wouldn't use it. Oils like this are a bit of a do it all formulation, it does everything OK, but nothing great. The thing that concerns me the most is the fact it's approved for injector systems, this inherently means the viscosity is very thin, not something wanted in a mix oil for air cooled engines. The flash point is also too low for my taste, and last but not least it's not a full syn oil. Now I'm sure it's not the worst oil out there, but they're much better options IMHO.
one.man.band
ArboristSite Guru
will post links to actual JASO test procedures. (getting ready for work, no time): they are found on JASO site.
the testing/certification process of JASO oils skews certain oils to failing. from what i remember, (will post references and corrections), the oil ratio used for JASO testing procedures is 16:1. this is important because oils designed to run leaner ratios such as 100:1 would have difficulty passing the tests. the leaner ratio oils are designed to do just that, these oils were not designed or recommended to be run at 16:1. they work by keeping things clean from deposits because there is such little oil in the mix. another way to put this into perspective, would be to think about if the test ratio was 100:1. if it was, very few oils would be able to pass testing.
TCW-3: this rating is not specifically for air-cooled 2 cycle engines. looking at different branding/labeling shows that some oils use the TCW-3 rating along with ratings for air-cooled engines as well. "universal" type of rating, for all types of 2 strokes (water and air cooled). the testing/specs of water cooled vs. air-cooled oils differ.
FLASHPOINT: the oils are blended. because oils are blended with solvents and additives for detergency, smoke control, etc. , when the flashpoint test procedure is happening..... the lightest vapor producing ingredient in the 2-stroke oil formula will catch fire FIRST. this means that most likely, that the base oil is not the thing burning off first.
the testing/certification process of JASO oils skews certain oils to failing. from what i remember, (will post references and corrections), the oil ratio used for JASO testing procedures is 16:1. this is important because oils designed to run leaner ratios such as 100:1 would have difficulty passing the tests. the leaner ratio oils are designed to do just that, these oils were not designed or recommended to be run at 16:1. they work by keeping things clean from deposits because there is such little oil in the mix. another way to put this into perspective, would be to think about if the test ratio was 100:1. if it was, very few oils would be able to pass testing.
TCW-3: this rating is not specifically for air-cooled 2 cycle engines. looking at different branding/labeling shows that some oils use the TCW-3 rating along with ratings for air-cooled engines as well. "universal" type of rating, for all types of 2 strokes (water and air cooled). the testing/specs of water cooled vs. air-cooled oils differ.
FLASHPOINT: the oils are blended. because oils are blended with solvents and additives for detergency, smoke control, etc. , when the flashpoint test procedure is happening..... the lightest vapor producing ingredient in the 2-stroke oil formula will catch fire FIRST. this means that most likely, that the base oil is not the thing burning off first.
one.man.band
ArboristSite Guru
jaso testing facts - piston/cylinder photos - synthetic vs. mineral oil tests
JASO M340 - Tests: lubricity and initial torque - exact same test for FB, FC, FD oil. The test is either pass or fail.
Therefore, since a passing grade is the same for (FB, FC, FD), no difference in superiority can be determined because raw numbers from tests are not published. Note: Oil Ratio used for test = 50:1
JASO M341 - Part 1 Tests Detergency of Piston Top and rings for 60 minutes run time for FB and FC oils while the testing length is 180 minutes for a FD rating. Since the FD oil is tested for 3X the length of the FB and FC oils that alone says something about the rating. Deposits are viewed at end of test procedure.
Part 2 Tests Detergency of the piston skirt. This test is for FD oils only for 180 minutes. The FB and FC rated oils do not meet the passing grade for piston skirt testing, or elect not to be tested for piston skirt cleanliness.
Note: Oil ratio used for test = 100:1
JASO 342 - Exhaust Smoke Test. An overly rich mixture of 10:1 is used for this test. The lowest acceptable passing grade (most smoke), is given to FB rated oils. The FC and FD oils receive a the same passing grade for less smoke.
JASO 343 - Exhaust System Blocking test. Measures amount of blocking on power valves/exhaust. An overly rich 5:1 ratio mix is used. The lowest acceptable passing grade(least blockage), is given to FB rated oils. The FC and FD oils receive a the same passing grade for even less blockage. Note: the test does not specifically list catalytic converters, but maybe this could apply to those as well.
----------------------------
This link has some photos of 2 stroke oil testing done. Results speak for themselves. The duration of these tests was over 250+ hours.
Two stroke engine oil, two stroke engine oil test, testing results for two stroke aircraft engine oil.
Interesting to note the results of mineral vs. synthetic photos. (You might be surprised).
------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another series of tests done by Yamaha Motor Company. They tested low smoke 2 stroke oils. Lots of results graphs. Another interesting indirect result of the tests is the synthetic vs. mineral oil results.
www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf
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was going to post a link to photos of a popular oil used by many members here, that showed a very varnished piston skirt, but decided against it.
stay thirsty my friends.
JASO M340 - Tests: lubricity and initial torque - exact same test for FB, FC, FD oil. The test is either pass or fail.
Therefore, since a passing grade is the same for (FB, FC, FD), no difference in superiority can be determined because raw numbers from tests are not published. Note: Oil Ratio used for test = 50:1
JASO M341 - Part 1 Tests Detergency of Piston Top and rings for 60 minutes run time for FB and FC oils while the testing length is 180 minutes for a FD rating. Since the FD oil is tested for 3X the length of the FB and FC oils that alone says something about the rating. Deposits are viewed at end of test procedure.
Part 2 Tests Detergency of the piston skirt. This test is for FD oils only for 180 minutes. The FB and FC rated oils do not meet the passing grade for piston skirt testing, or elect not to be tested for piston skirt cleanliness.
Note: Oil ratio used for test = 100:1
JASO 342 - Exhaust Smoke Test. An overly rich mixture of 10:1 is used for this test. The lowest acceptable passing grade (most smoke), is given to FB rated oils. The FC and FD oils receive a the same passing grade for less smoke.
JASO 343 - Exhaust System Blocking test. Measures amount of blocking on power valves/exhaust. An overly rich 5:1 ratio mix is used. The lowest acceptable passing grade(least blockage), is given to FB rated oils. The FC and FD oils receive a the same passing grade for even less blockage. Note: the test does not specifically list catalytic converters, but maybe this could apply to those as well.
----------------------------
This link has some photos of 2 stroke oil testing done. Results speak for themselves. The duration of these tests was over 250+ hours.
Two stroke engine oil, two stroke engine oil test, testing results for two stroke aircraft engine oil.
Interesting to note the results of mineral vs. synthetic photos. (You might be surprised).
------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another series of tests done by Yamaha Motor Company. They tested low smoke 2 stroke oils. Lots of results graphs. Another interesting indirect result of the tests is the synthetic vs. mineral oil results.
www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf
----------------------------------------------------------
was going to post a link to photos of a popular oil used by many members here, that showed a very varnished piston skirt, but decided against it.
stay thirsty my friends.
I've been using Mobil One MX2T until I ran out, then went back to motorcycle roots and have had success with Bel-Ray H1R and recently because of supply issues Golden Spectro Synthetic....Where do these fit relative to oils such as Bailey's Woodland Pro and the other Major (Stihl & Husqvarna) brand offerings? Klotz is yet another proven oil...
Mobil One MX2T was a great product, I used it for years and it was the cleanest burning oil I've ever used, plus it was really cheap.
Most of the OPE oils are a bit thinner than the racing oils, they mix easy and often have fuel stabilizers in them. For the most part the syn oils offered by the OPE manufactures are really pretty good, but a bit over priced if you use a lot of mix.
The racing oils like Bel-Ray H1R, Klotz R50, Motul 800, Silkolene Pro 2 SX and Maxima K2 are full on racing esters, all of which have incredible film strength and thermal stability, the film strength of these oils are nearly that of castor oils, but without any of the gumming issues castor oils tend to have. Ester oils are also polar, so the oil is literally attracted to metal, this helps prevent dry stat ups. In chainsaws these oils are honestly overkill, but I've yet to see anything really negative with these oils. I've seen the inside of quite a few engines ran on many different oils, and the engines ran on ester oils seem to have the least ware, and everything inside is always covered in a nice coating of oil. I can't say that about some of the OPE oils.
sachsmo
Addicted to ArboristSite
one.man.band
ArboristSite Guru
photos or piston/combustion chamber of different oils.
The R/C Aircraft Proving Grounds - 2 Cycle Oil Test Summary
oils tested:
Amsoil dominator
Amsoil Sabre
Bel-Ray H1R
Lawnboy
Mobil 1 MX2T
Mobil 1 MX2T with fuel injector cleaner added
Pennzoil Aircooled
Pennzoil TCW-3 Synthetic Outboard Synthetic
The R/C Aircraft Proving Grounds - 2 Cycle Oil Test Summary
oils tested:
Amsoil dominator
Amsoil Sabre
Bel-Ray H1R
Lawnboy
Mobil 1 MX2T
Mobil 1 MX2T with fuel injector cleaner added
Pennzoil Aircooled
Pennzoil TCW-3 Synthetic Outboard Synthetic
one.man.band
ArboristSite Guru
Stihl Warranty (2011) - MS261 <<in regards to fuel/oil>>
this is taken from USA Warranty. (Stihl's Warranty varies by country where purchased).
From warranty language:
Warranty will be null and void IF the purchaser:
1. Use's a fuel containing more than 10% (E10) ethanol content gasoline
2. Use's improper mix ratios or use of mix oils and other lubricants not specified in product instruction manual.
From Product Instruction Manual:
1. Use high quality unleaded gasoline, 89 (R+M/2) minimum octane.
2. M-Tronic motors can run on gasoline with an ethanol content of up to 25% (E25).
3. Use recommended Stihl HP Ultra 2-cycle oil OR equivalent high-quality oils that are designed for use only in air-cooled 2-cycle engines.
4. Do NOT use: TCW or BIA oils. (Water cooled mix oils). Do NOT use mix oils that state that they are for use in BOTH water and air cooled engines.
5. Mix ratio = 50:1
references:
http://www.stihlusa.com/STIHLInc_Limited_Warranty1.11.pdf
http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/STIHL_MS_261_IM.pdf
this is taken from USA Warranty. (Stihl's Warranty varies by country where purchased).
From warranty language:
Warranty will be null and void IF the purchaser:
1. Use's a fuel containing more than 10% (E10) ethanol content gasoline
2. Use's improper mix ratios or use of mix oils and other lubricants not specified in product instruction manual.
From Product Instruction Manual:
1. Use high quality unleaded gasoline, 89 (R+M/2) minimum octane.
2. M-Tronic motors can run on gasoline with an ethanol content of up to 25% (E25).
3. Use recommended Stihl HP Ultra 2-cycle oil OR equivalent high-quality oils that are designed for use only in air-cooled 2-cycle engines.
4. Do NOT use: TCW or BIA oils. (Water cooled mix oils). Do NOT use mix oils that state that they are for use in BOTH water and air cooled engines.
5. Mix ratio = 50:1
references:
http://www.stihlusa.com/STIHLInc_Limited_Warranty1.11.pdf
http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/STIHL_MS_261_IM.pdf
Last edited:
jmw
ArboristSite Lurker
Here's what Stihl Australia sell.
As noted earlier in the thread it's got a Castrol logo on the bottle. There's nothing about ratings, it doesn't even claim to be oil.
According to my local dealer it's a mineral oil, it's the only 2 stroke oil Stihl sell here & Stihl Australia recommend against using synthetic oil.
Anyone in oz know why that would be?
As noted earlier in the thread it's got a Castrol logo on the bottle. There's nothing about ratings, it doesn't even claim to be oil.
According to my local dealer it's a mineral oil, it's the only 2 stroke oil Stihl sell here & Stihl Australia recommend against using synthetic oil.
Anyone in oz know why that would be?
Here's what Stihl Australia sell.
As noted earlier in the thread it's got a Castrol logo on the bottle. There's nothing about ratings, it doesn't even claim to be oil.
According to my local dealer it's a mineral oil, it's the only 2 stroke oil Stihl sell here & Stihl Australia recommend against using synthetic oil.
Anyone in oz know why that would be?
Look for a better dealer. Stihl highly recommends using synthetic oil, they even extend the warranty if you use their syn oil.
jmw
ArboristSite Lurker
Next closest dealer's 100 miles away. It was cheaper & easer to get a saw shipped from Franklin, Ohio than to buy locally - should be here any day now.
That's the deal in the states, but australia's different.
I dunno if the bit about recommending against synthetics is true or something the guy at the dealer came up with on his own, but stihl don't sell a synthetic here and there's no extended warrany offer.
Maybe we're just backwards?
one.man.band
ArboristSite Guru
focus on Synthetic Ester (Group 5) oils
maybe/maybe not a good time to post this:
Synthetic Ester Oils
Good things: (some of these points were already made by Andyshine77). thx andy
Great Lubricity.
Excellent solvent for additive package. (ie. detergents, smoke free additive, gas-stabilizers, etc.)
High Flashpoint.
Highly Polar. (Bond to metal parts readily).
So-so thing:
Medium Shear protection under pressure. (Ability for oil to stay in a protective film state).
Long term storage life is fair.
Bad things:
Highly Polar. This is also bad because being highly polar, it bonds to water molecules. Because a 2-stroke always has open ports to the atmosphere, humidity and condensation are a problem. Condensation could come from running a saw on a cool/cold day. Wet weather, high humidity, etc. The oil will bond with this water vapor on engine internals. That's when the so-so thing (listed above), comes into play as well. The protective film state is very important during storage and/or longer lengths between chainsaw uses. A 4-stroke oil system using esters burns the water vapor off, and since the oil is recirculated, does not behave like the 2-stroke oil using ester.
Price. Could easily be double of mineral oils.
Most all 100% ester oils are used for racing type applications. Racers (most) mix only enough for the weekend's use. Synthetic Esters would suit folks who burn through gallons of pre-mix quickly, such as commercial tree cutters, loggers, etc. Those folks keep theirs saws hot for many mnay hours at a go. The folks like me, who only use their saws sporadically for a few months out of the year would have more issues due to storage between uses where using semi-synthetics or mineral oils might be more appropriate.
I don't have a vendetta toward esters.
references:
Feeding your Rotax 2-stroke Aircraft Engine | Rotax fuel, Rotax octane, Rotax oil, 2-stroke oil
www.zddplus.com/TechBrief10 - Oil Base Stocks.pdf
Feeding your Rotax 2-stroke Aircraft Engine | Rotax fuel, Rotax octane, Rotax oil, 2-stroke oil
www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part23.pdf
maybe/maybe not a good time to post this:
Synthetic Ester Oils
Good things: (some of these points were already made by Andyshine77). thx andy
Great Lubricity.
Excellent solvent for additive package. (ie. detergents, smoke free additive, gas-stabilizers, etc.)
High Flashpoint.
Highly Polar. (Bond to metal parts readily).
So-so thing:
Medium Shear protection under pressure. (Ability for oil to stay in a protective film state).
Long term storage life is fair.
Bad things:
Highly Polar. This is also bad because being highly polar, it bonds to water molecules. Because a 2-stroke always has open ports to the atmosphere, humidity and condensation are a problem. Condensation could come from running a saw on a cool/cold day. Wet weather, high humidity, etc. The oil will bond with this water vapor on engine internals. That's when the so-so thing (listed above), comes into play as well. The protective film state is very important during storage and/or longer lengths between chainsaw uses. A 4-stroke oil system using esters burns the water vapor off, and since the oil is recirculated, does not behave like the 2-stroke oil using ester.
Price. Could easily be double of mineral oils.
Most all 100% ester oils are used for racing type applications. Racers (most) mix only enough for the weekend's use. Synthetic Esters would suit folks who burn through gallons of pre-mix quickly, such as commercial tree cutters, loggers, etc. Those folks keep theirs saws hot for many mnay hours at a go. The folks like me, who only use their saws sporadically for a few months out of the year would have more issues due to storage between uses where using semi-synthetics or mineral oils might be more appropriate.
I don't have a vendetta toward esters.
references:
Feeding your Rotax 2-stroke Aircraft Engine | Rotax fuel, Rotax octane, Rotax oil, 2-stroke oil
www.zddplus.com/TechBrief10 - Oil Base Stocks.pdf
Feeding your Rotax 2-stroke Aircraft Engine | Rotax fuel, Rotax octane, Rotax oil, 2-stroke oil
www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part23.pdf
sachsmo
Addicted to ArboristSite
I was at a Husqvarna meeting today and they talked about oils. The instructor stated that the API rating has been non existent for a number of year, they no longer test these oils. He said that JASCO was the one that has done the best/most extreme testing.
His opinion was that any bottle, at this time, that has an API rating printed on it he has no faith in.
His opinion was that any bottle, at this time, that has an API rating printed on it he has no faith in.
one.man.band
ArboristSite Guru
JASCO list is updated at their site every month:
JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel
if the oil is brand is not listed on their site, it was not tested for whatever reason (no matter what it says on the bottle). Only those certified with test type, grade, and certification # are supposed to be labeled with a FB, FC, FD. Some oil say 'meets or exceeds'....not the same thing in legaleeze.
Oils that say 'Meets or exceeds' most likely DO just that, 'meet or exceed' the JASCO tests. But, we as the consumer have no way to really know. JASCO says that retesting is necessary: if the oil 'name' changes; if the main ingredients (base stock,smoke reducer, etc.) are changed. Many oil blenders do not want to pay for testing or retesting because of the costs involved. $30,000 to $50,000. Many proven oils out there, are not even tested.
Read your saw warranty. Don't void your warranty by using the wrong type of oil.
Some oils are dyed blue, red, green. Not sure if there is any significance to the different colored dyes? Can the different colors be traced back during motor tear-down to different types of oil or oil quality? (For warranty purposes.)
JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel
if the oil is brand is not listed on their site, it was not tested for whatever reason (no matter what it says on the bottle). Only those certified with test type, grade, and certification # are supposed to be labeled with a FB, FC, FD. Some oil say 'meets or exceeds'....not the same thing in legaleeze.
Oils that say 'Meets or exceeds' most likely DO just that, 'meet or exceed' the JASCO tests. But, we as the consumer have no way to really know. JASCO says that retesting is necessary: if the oil 'name' changes; if the main ingredients (base stock,smoke reducer, etc.) are changed. Many oil blenders do not want to pay for testing or retesting because of the costs involved. $30,000 to $50,000. Many proven oils out there, are not even tested.
Read your saw warranty. Don't void your warranty by using the wrong type of oil.
Some oils are dyed blue, red, green. Not sure if there is any significance to the different colored dyes? Can the different colors be traced back during motor tear-down to different types of oil or oil quality? (For warranty purposes.)
There is probably many a good oil out there, I've myself have had no problems with Echo Powerblend in any of my saws.
