vermeer 352 stumpgrinder Turbo charger

[Jimma]

Thanks Dave, it helps a lot. I probably won't have a chance to look at it until this weekend, but it helps to know what I'm looking for. I appreciate it. You may want want to keep the e turbo handy. I may be calling you soon. Hope it is something simple, but we'll see.

 

[Jimma]

So I changed the turbo, thanks Dave, and the machine runs great and I can hear the turbo spinning. But I still seem to have a fuel issue. It starts right up, but blows out black/bluish smoke for a few seconds then when you rev it up it smokes a little again. Haven't put the cutter to wood yet, so I don't know what will happen then. My question would be, when the first turbo went, it had a catastrophic failure and the carbon completely covered the machine, and quite comically, me too. The second turbo, put in used, went two weeks later. I always suspected it had to do with all the carbon in everything. Before putting the new turbo in, I cleaned everything up as best I could. but I wonder if anything got gummed up apart from the turbo components? The second question if anyone can help is, if this continues to smoke, I would guess it is caused by the injectors. I have a spare motor that I can take the injectors out of. Can I pull them out and put them in this machine like a spark plug without having to make any adjustments if they are good? I really don't want to bring it to an injector specialist if I can help it.

 

[Stump Grinder52]

So I changed the turbo, thanks Dave, and the machine runs great and I can hear the turbo spinning. But I still seem to have a fuel issue. It starts right up, but blows out black/bluish smoke for a few seconds then when you rev it up it smokes a little again. Haven't put the cutter to wood yet, so I don't know what will happen then. My question would be, when the first turbo went, it had a catastrophic failure and the carbon completely covered the machine, and quite comically, me too. The second turbo, put in used, went two weeks later. I always suspected it had to do with all the carbon in everything. Before putting the new turbo in, I cleaned everything up as best I could. but I wonder if anything got gummed up apart from the turbo components? The second question if anyone can help is, if this continues to smoke, I would guess it is caused by the injectors. I have a spare motor that I can take the injectors out of. Can I pull them out and put them in this machine like a spark plug without having to make any adjustments if they are good? I really don't want to bring it to an injector specialist if I can help it.

Yes you can but i would take them to a place[Boston Fuel Injection ]and have them tested.That way you know your putting in something good and not replacing it with junk.

 

[Jimma]

Thanks, I will bring them and the spare set to have them tested. Other than the smoke issue, it runs great, at least with no load. I'll take it out and try it next week and see what happens. But it does seem to be getting too much fuel, at least when first cranked. Just don't want to gunk everything up and have another turbo problem. Next step is testing the injectors then moving on to the fuel pump. Thanks for the responce.

 

[Jimma]

So after putting the new turbo in, the grinder ran fine, but does blow out a little black smoke when starting and when sudden acceleration. But I used it today and when the grinding wheel starts to cut wood, the black smoke increases dramatically. Check all the hoses and tubes and found the crank case breathing tube all gunked up. After cleaning it out and replacing it, the engine still put out black smoke when starting and acceleration. But when I took out the air filter, the smoke was blue. Put the filter back in and it was black. Not sure that means anything.

 

[Stump Grinder52]

So after putting the new turbo in, the grinder ran fine, but does blow out a little black smoke when starting and when sudden acceleration. But I used it today and when the grinding wheel starts to cut wood, the black smoke increases dramatically. Check all the hoses and tubes and found the crank case breathing tube all gunked up. After cleaning it out and replacing it, the engine still put out black smoke when starting and acceleration. But when I took out the air filter, the smoke was blue. Put the filter back in and it was black. Not sure that means anything.

When you remove the filter your getting more air.What condition is the air filter,does it have a two stage filter system?Which means a inner and outer filter.If you removed the filter and smoke cleared up ,you had a filter problem,sounds like your over fueling.The down side of[ rolling coal] like it's doing is excessive cylinder heat,tough on pistons,excessive fuel going by pistons rings to crankcase,could cause scoring of pistons,cylinder walls.Not trying to scare you,just fact.

 

[Jimma]

It has a 2 stage filter and I replaced both. When you pull out the filters, the smoke turns from black to blueish, but still smokes. The port where the oil outlet tube has a lot of gunk in it at the turbo and the crank case breather tube. But it doesn't smoke all the time, just when first starting and when the cutter wheel is actually cutting into a stump. That smoke is black. I don't know much about diesels, actually not much about any internals of any engine, But seems like there might be a valve problem. The real problem is that I can't get a diesel mechanic to look at it. Too small for the heavy machine guys and too weird for the regular mechanics. Are there breather ports or something in the valve area? Can I use some type of cleaner to flush it out, I already used something in the fuel.

 

[Stump Grinder52]

It has a 2 stage filter and I replaced both. When you pull out the filters, the smoke turns from black to blueish, but still smokes. The port where the oil outlet tube has a lot of gunk in it at the turbo and the crank case breather tube. But it doesn't smoke all the time, just when first starting and when the cutter wheel is actually cutting into a stump. That smoke is black. I don't know much about diesels, actually not much about any internals of any engine, But seems like there might be a valve problem. The real problem is that I can't get a diesel mechanic to look at it. Too small for the heavy machine guys and too weird for the regular mechanics. Are there breather ports or something in the valve area? Can I use some type of cleaner to flush it out, I already used something in the fuel.

You have been talking to one with over 40 yrs .experience , started off 1970 heavy equipment,evolved to trucks in the mid 70's,retired as a lead tech in 2012 from a trucking company,been grinding stumps for 6yrs.,first two years part time, been doing it full time for the last four.

 

[Jimma]

"Stump grinder 52" you're the one I have been seeking for advise, help. I have 2 vermeer 352's, exactly the same. I just want to keep one running so I can work. Right now, one is running and the other is producing a lot of black smoke when grinding and I'm thinking whatever is is is the cause of taking down 2 turbos within a month. Just got the other grinder back Saturday after having it welded in a couple of places. The next time that both machines go down at the same time, will probably be the day I retire. I'd rather hang on for another year or two, but it's getting tiring keep things running.

 

[Stump Grinder52]

"Stump grinder 52" you're the one I have been seeking for advise, help. I have 2 vermeer 352's, exactly the same. I just want to keep one running so I can work. Right now, one is running and the other is producing a lot of black smoke when grinding and I'm thinking whatever is is is the cause of taking down 2 turbos within a month. Just got the other grinder back Saturday after having it welded in a couple of places. The next time that both machines go down at the same time, will probably be the day I retire. I'd rather hang on for another year or two, but it's getting tiring keep things running.

Jimma,I have responded four times to this post,have injectors checked.One last thing,the turbo you installed is the same size you took off intake [inducer side] .

 

[Jimma]

Hey Stumper, I really appreciate all your responses. I did intend to have the injectors tested. But when I saw the gunk in the hoses, I immediately thought I had a plugged breather or valve. Now I know you are much more informed than me, I'll check the injectors next. Thank you. (One last thing,the turbo you installed is the same size you took off intake [inducer side] . Not sure what you mean, but the turbo I installed is the same size as the one I took off.

 

[Stump Grinder52]

Hey Stumper, I really appreciate all your responses. I did intend to have the injectors tested. But when I saw the gunk in the hoses, I immediately thought I had a plugged breather or valve. Now I know you are much more informed than me, I'll check the injectors next. Thank you. (One last thing,the turbo you installed is the same size you took off intake [inducer side] . Not sure what you mean, but the turbo I installed is the same size as the one I took off.

Some how i thought maybe the intake side of the turbo might be smaller than the one you took off,giving it less air,which would throw your fuel calibrations off.But you would have noticed it,cause your intake hose would be larger and fit loosely over turbo.Just trying to cover all bases.Good luck.

 

[Jimma]

Interesting question and I'm going to take a closer look at the size of the intake. I remember thinking when I put that hose on that it didn't seem as snug as I thought it would be. By snug, I mean it slid right on rather than having to force it on. But the symptoms were being exhibited before I changed the turbo so it would be an additional or contributing problem. But I'll check to be sure.

 

[Stump Grinder52]

Interesting question and I'm going to take a closer look at the size of the intake. I remember thinking when I put that hose on that it didn't seem as snug as I thought it would be. By snug, I mean it slid right on rather than having to force it on. But the symptoms were being exhibited before I changed the turbo so it would be an additional or contributing problem. But I'll check to be sure.

Jimma,Are you saying you are having the same problem[blowing black smoke under load] as you had before installing the turbo?

 

[Jimma]

Exactly. It started with the original turbo. It had a catastrophic failure, covering the machine, the walls, me with carbon. Pulled off the intake hose and the turbo shaft was flopping around. I put in a used turbo from another engine I had, same type and model, and the machine worked fine for a couple of weeks maybe, a month. The shaft on this turbo had no play at all when I put it in and showed no smoke when I used it. Then it started to blow black smoke when I would start to cut stumps. Pull it off the stumps and it would stop. So I pulled off the intake hose and sure enough, the shaft of that turbo was very lose. I put in a brand new turbo and it looked good until I put the cutter to a stump and black smoke. I figured the left over carbon from the first failure must have clogs something and caused the second failure. When I changed to the used turbo, I also put in the hoses that were with it that seemed clean but after I pulled that turbo out, the valve cover hose that goes to the air intake was full of gunk as was the oil outlet tube. Changed them, but still the same problem. Starts right up and runs fine with no noticeable smoke except a few puffs when starting, but put the cutter to wood and black smoke.

 

[Stump Grinder52]

Exactly. It started with the original turbo. It had a catastrophic failure, covering the machine, the walls, me with carbon. Pulled off the intake hose and the turbo shaft was flopping around. I put in a used turbo from another engine I had, same type and model, and the machine worked fine for a couple of weeks maybe, a month. The shaft on this turbo had no play at all when I put it in and showed no smoke when I used it. Then it started to blow black smoke when I would start to cut stumps. Pull it off the stumps and it would stop. So I pulled off the intake hose and sure enough, the shaft of that turbo was very lose. I put in a brand new turbo and it looked good until I put the cutter to a stump and black smoke. I figured the left over carbon from the first failure must have clogs something and caused the second failure. When I changed to the used turbo, I also put in the hoses that were with it that seemed clean but after I pulled that turbo out, the valve cover hose that goes to the air intake was full of gunk as was the oil outlet tube. Changed them, but still the same problem. Starts right up and runs fine with no noticeable smoke except a few puffs when starting, but put the cutter to wood and black smoke.

If your around late afternoon/early evening give me a call,i would like to discuss your problem, 774 644 0038 Joe

 

[Jimma]

OK Joe, right after talking to you I went out and fired up the machine and sprayed the heck out of every hose, connection, everything. The engine ran and sounded like new and never let out a puff of smoke. What ever leaked the first turbo failure, must have been corrected in the change.. So I guess I'm back to looking at the injectors. But I appreciate the help. Is there some sort of relay, electrical reason that the turbo would fire up when under load? It seems to be running clean at an idle and even when I rev it up, other than a momentary puff of smoke. Or is there some electrical reason that the injectors might produce more fuel under load?

 

[Stump Grinder52]

OK Joe, right after talking to you I went out and fired up the machine and sprayed the heck out of every hose, connection, everything. The engine ran and sounded like new and never let out a puff of smoke. What ever leaked the first turbo failure, must have been corrected in the change.. So I guess I'm back to looking at the injectors. But I appreciate the help. Is there some sort of relay, electrical reason that the turbo would fire up when under load? It seems to be running clean at an idle and even when I rev it up, other than a momentary puff of smoke. Or is there some electrical reason that the injectors might produce more fuel under load?

I'm 99% sure your injectors are not electrical,your injector pump pushes fuel to the injector,the injector pump is calibrated to push fuel to the injector at lets say 3000 psi,now the injector is calibrated to pop at 3000 psi,by pop i mean spray a very fine atomized mist of fuel,much finer than a aerosol can spray mist.The holes in the nozzel of the tip of the injector are about the diameter of a hair.Now as time goes by the holes get bigger and let more fuel into the cylinder,i have also seen tips blow out of the injector,dumping raw fuel into the cylinder causing black smoke at idle and skipping.Now as an injector gets old the calibration can go out causing it to pop at a lower psi causing premature dumping of fuel and and a poor atomization .Both of these condition cause a over fueling conditions.The numbers i gave you for pressures is just an example.The diesels of today have electronic accuaters controlled by a ECM[computer] and pop at between 25/30k ,hope this helps,Jim

 

[Jimma]

Thank you for that explanation, I'm complete illiterate about injectors and how they work. My next step will be to get them tested and either solve the problem or eliminate another possible cause.

 

[Jimma]

I just reread your last response about the injector and turbo popping at 3000 psi. I didn't get the timing of the injector and turbo until I just read that. It's starting to come into focus a bit and I have a much better understanding of what I'm looking for. I may forget by morning, but the light bulb is flickering right now. Thanks brother.