I have to laugh at this. Sold a guy an OEM Stihl coil the other day. He swore his saw wasn't sparking and was offended when I offered some help. The next day it was a spark plug, the next day it was a carb kit and a fuel line, at the end of the week the saw was on my bench. Found wore out AV bushings that allowed the saw to flex, pulling the impulse line lose. Sold him some bushings and he had a nice reconditioned saw. BTW, the I threw on the old coil and it sparked fine.
What is Husqvarna thinking!
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Finn1
ArboristSite Member
Years ago I worked in the engineering department of a large farm equipment / truck manufacturer. As ayoung engineer, I was somewhat suprised to find that the service (dealer) price of (engine) parts was, as a rule 4X what we paid for them from our supplier (rings, pistons, cylinder liners are made by suppliers to oem specs).
The will fitters sold many parts for considerably less, just like chainsaw parts in this thread. Our parts had all been properly designed and validated. and later certified to emission compliance, stocked at depots and had a service organization to stand behind them.
The willfitters were generally reverse engineered, had no capability of desire to qualify anything: basically they had no overhead and if the part failed the customer was on his own. We sometimes obtained willfitter parts at the requestof dealers or service for eveluation. Generally they wereone step above junk. I don't know how it is now, but rebuilds for late model high dollar ag equipment or trucks was generally done at a dealer shop. The customers couldn't afford comebacks and the dealerships had the trained technicians. The willfit stuff was generally installed on old equipment nearing the end of its service life,by backalley shops so it never saw extended use. It was good enough for a backup tractor or truck. That's not too far from what I read into some of the comments in this thread
The other part of the equation is that the oem really made a relatively small amount of the total corporate profit on parts. Dealers did ok with their shops, but when the manufacturer makes say $500 on an engine rebuild it is nothing compared to what he makes selling and probably financing a new machine. His investment is primarily in his new designs, certifications, factories, and financing arm, and the more new equipment he sells as opposed to reman parts, the better for the corporation. On a rebuild, the dealer keeps all the labor profit, and, say half the parts profit. After procurement warehousing and distribution costs, there's not much left for the oem
Cutting prices on spare parts is akin to cutting his own throat
The will fitters sold many parts for considerably less, just like chainsaw parts in this thread. Our parts had all been properly designed and validated. and later certified to emission compliance, stocked at depots and had a service organization to stand behind them.
The willfitters were generally reverse engineered, had no capability of desire to qualify anything: basically they had no overhead and if the part failed the customer was on his own. We sometimes obtained willfitter parts at the requestof dealers or service for eveluation. Generally they wereone step above junk. I don't know how it is now, but rebuilds for late model high dollar ag equipment or trucks was generally done at a dealer shop. The customers couldn't afford comebacks and the dealerships had the trained technicians. The willfit stuff was generally installed on old equipment nearing the end of its service life,by backalley shops so it never saw extended use. It was good enough for a backup tractor or truck. That's not too far from what I read into some of the comments in this thread
The other part of the equation is that the oem really made a relatively small amount of the total corporate profit on parts. Dealers did ok with their shops, but when the manufacturer makes say $500 on an engine rebuild it is nothing compared to what he makes selling and probably financing a new machine. His investment is primarily in his new designs, certifications, factories, and financing arm, and the more new equipment he sells as opposed to reman parts, the better for the corporation. On a rebuild, the dealer keeps all the labor profit, and, say half the parts profit. After procurement warehousing and distribution costs, there's not much left for the oem
Cutting prices on spare parts is akin to cutting his own throat
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
That's a bullseye right there. There are of course some saws with these kits that are doing well in a serious use envirionment. But talk to some pros who have tried them, and the consensus is that they don't hold up in commercial use. Walter and I agree that these kits are not for pro users. I think he even posted that earlier. They are great for an extra saw. And for the guy who can turn the wrenches, it makes plenty of sense to throw one of these kits on a saw rather than throw a dead saw in the corner. Personally, I thnk if you can salvage the cylinder, sticking an aftermarket piston in there is a better, (and cheaper yet), end result than a complete AM top end.
I frequently talk about the "2 worlds" thing regarding the differences between everyday saw market and here in the hobby/enthusiast community. One of those differences is how many saws most of us own. Our trigger time is therefore spread out over all these saws, so the run time on some on these rebuilds is really not enough to accurately evaluate their longevity. After all, it's not just how well they run, but how long they run that needs to be considered.
I think these kits do have a place though. Particularly on the less expensive saws that get squeezed by the math involved with OEM parts. For example, a top end for a 350 costs about the same as one for a 372. (OEM or AM) And putting $200 into a $300 saw certainly doesn't make as much sense as on a $800 saw. So these kits do make it feasable to rebuild some of the smaller less expensive saws.
How far I'd go with these things in my store is a question I'm still asking myself. I can get a kit for almost any saw from between $45 and $60. I get pistons for $16. I think they are good enough for a non-commercial firewood saw. I end up with plenty of dead saws that customers don't want to rebuild. (When a saw dies, many customers WANT to get a new one.) You only need so many used parts hanging around, and even then, mostly on the more popular commercial saws that get dropped and run over. So, what do I do with say a 55 that comes in? Maybe rebuild it with a $45 AM kit and sell it for $150-$175? I always fully disclose what I did or put on a used saw. And owning the store, I can do these jobs in my spare time, even at home. So, I have an advantage in that the labor clock really doesn't matter. There are plenty of people who need a decent firewood saw, but barely have wild thing money to get one. I think it's better for one of these saws to go in that direction than in the scrap pile.
Finn1
ArboristSite Member
I fully agree: the willfit parts have a place and I would use them in my own beaters. I only cut a few cords for my own use, spread out over several saws, and could never justify a commercial saw for any reason that my ego would like one, which ia a legitimite reason in its own rite.
There is also a reason that the oem power cylinder sells for a premium, and if a low hour pro saw is damaged in a commercial use environment, I would assert that the oem power cylinder is the proper repair for that customer.
For a used personal use saw, willfit parts are ok as long as it is disclosed to the customer and priced accordingly.
There is also a reason that the oem power cylinder sells for a premium, and if a low hour pro saw is damaged in a commercial use environment, I would assert that the oem power cylinder is the proper repair for that customer.
For a used personal use saw, willfit parts are ok as long as it is disclosed to the customer and priced accordingly.
Walter, you're my best friend in the saw world, but I disagree with almost everything you wrote. LOL This winter's really gotta end soon so you can get out of the house.................
'.......................Well, most of these guys are going to buy a Rancher or Farm Boss. And that's exactly what's happening as they are Husky and Stihl's best sellers. (You always speak favorably of the 455;s yourself.
While I was being....schooled! I was out trying two saws from the video's. ( I have to concede what ever points are relevent as everything I know about the saw business I've learned from Bob.
)Funny you mentioned the 455...consider this a pair of $250 dollar options....
MacLaren
Addicted to ArboristSite
Cool thread guys. Speaking of saws and top ends, bars, replacement parts etc.. Spike60 is a huge asset A.S. He makes a lot of things possible. I hope the new members read this and take heed. Its good to know Spike.
BDM53ENT
ArboristSite Operative
That pretty much summed it all up.
MikeSaws587
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The world's gotten a lot smaller and OEMs are looking to source just as cheap as anybody. I would disagree that most dealers don't bother with aftermarket. Manufacturing a cylinder isn't that hard; it's just that Stihl and Husqvarna use Mahle to make them. Just my opinion. I've used plenty of aftermarket that was better than the OEM; made in the US and the OE was overseas.
But I'm a hobbyist at heart too. I just found this site and really like it. Working on my saw collection makes me sane!
But I'm a hobbyist at heart too. I just found this site and really like it. Working on my saw collection makes me sane!
Yet again "the other side" of dealers that few ever see. Some that I have helped out in the past, have become great customers, and those still in a rut have become volunteers to help others.
james archibald
ArboristSite Lurker
What I find sad is a guy who heats with wood and can't afford a brand new 372 XP, and he doesn't understand he could go out and buy a really nice 272 for 250-400$, give it a quick once over and start buckin wood. He thinks its "an old beat up saw that's probably gonna blow up" so he opts for the 455 rancher with a warranty and it ***** the bed afte two years.
MikeSaws587
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Unless you're in it, you have no idea. You go to the Stihl website and see MS 290, "our best selling chain saw". It should say, "this saw is trash and sucks to rebuild". One of my favorite saws is a 371 I got out of a junk pile. It was complete and I spent a few bucks on some used parts to get it running. It's amazing what gets thrown out rather than fixed. My local guy takes in 200-300 saws annually that people dont come back and pickup.
Bingo. And with the internet & YouTube, more and more are looking at other options.
The 55/455 and 029/290 are respected saws, and have cut more wood that the 372/440. The same clown that can kill a 55 will kill a 372. Its nothing to see a twenty year old saw still in service cutting firewood, every season. Grey and white tops are a plenty.
In the past 7 years I have only re-ringed a single 455. Don't have a single 455 carcass of any sorts in the "scud" room.
In the past 7 years I have only re-ringed a single 455. Don't have a single 455 carcass of any sorts in the "scud" room.
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well again, this is somewhat accurate when viewed through the lens of an AS member. But out in the everyday world, that's not how it works. The average saw user is not capable of giving it a quick once over. He doesn't know what to look for. Doesn't know what a 272 is or was. Therefore, he's not going to spend $400 on an "unknown" when that money will get him a new saw with a warranty. The average saw user can't clean his air filter, sharpen his chain, or even keep it properly tightened. Heck, a lot of people can't even cut their own wood; they have to buy it. I have a very nice looking 272 here in the shop with a wiped top end because it's owner was one of those clueless types. Like hamish said, lack of maintenance will kill any saw. I disagree with the statement that the 455 will only last about two years. They are a very reliable saw. A little less fussy on fuel quality too. They just keep going and going. I also see very few failures.
Now......LOL.........Walter and I talked on the phone yesterday and had some more fun with this. He chastised me for saying I disagreed with everything he wrote and I then went on to agree with 75% of it.
So I must publicly re-phrase my initial post and say that I disagree with the core premise of this thread, which is that the ability to inexpensively rebuild older saws with aftermarket parts could possibly have an adverse affect on the Husky and Stihl business models. Most of the other points we do indeed agree on. Heck, we agree on most everything. Where we diverge here, is that I feel the reality that exists here in the AS world is just a small fraction of, and very very different from, the "big picture" that exists in the chainsaw industry. Hamish, I and some others have given plenty of reasons that need not be repeated. The average person just isn't going to rebuid his own saw, plain and simple. That's good for business of course, but I really do like that reality here where so many members keep these old saws in the woods and out of the dumpster.Here's an example from about a year ago. Real cherry 257 that was straight gassed. Gave him a decent price to rebuild it, but he decided to get himself a 460 rancher. This saw was too nice NOT to rebuild, so of course I did just that.
