When is being efficient to good?

[northmanlogging]

So we've got processors, feller bunchers, grapple carriages, electric chokers, tethered everything. Great more guys are surviving the day. And more wood then ever can be produced per shift, these are good things right?

But, there's always a but, we can't grow the trees any faster

Over the last couple years I've noticed that the local mills, and even the export yards just aint getting enough wood, round about late fall they all start running short, and the production over the summer isn't enough to catch up, not really anyway. Last summers fire season (2021) several of the mills round here just about ran out of wood entirely, even keeping the log yards open on Sat/Sun to get enough wood to make it through the week.

So at what point does all this fancy new gadgets start putting folks out of work? Its not a matter of demand, there will always be a demand for timber products, its a matter of having enough available ground to log, while yes there is literally millions of acres of available timber land, its not all available at once, the FS and DNR have tight schedules on what they allow to cut, the industrial timber is largely all cut as soon as its ready, but its simply not enough to keep up with current demand.

Its gotten bad enough I've been seeing some of the bigger mechanical outfits bringing in processors and what not for small acreage jobs, spending $1000's on moving in 3-4 machines to cut for maybe 2 days and at most 10 loads of logs...

Anyhow point being, everyone has been so focused on being efficient that they forgot to check on their sources, cool you can burn through xx acres a day, what about tomorrow?

 

[scheffa]

I would assume the increase in productivity for the logging crews would mean increased profits per tree harvested.
With all the advances being made in equipment and technology whilst making the job safer and less injuries, the machines will be replacing guys and girls on the ground costing the industry jobs.
With the outfits floating in large machines to harvest small lots that don’t always make monetary sense, is this just because they don’t have any larger more suitable lots to harvest so they have to take what they can get?
Or is it that the smaller contractors with smaller gear and hand fallers etc have been pushed out business?
The lack of timber to harvest is only going to get much worse. Here in Victoria australia we have a long history of native hardwood looking that has employed both directly and indirectly a **** load of people. As of a couple weeks ago that has all been shut down and the contractors, kills, trucks etc are all looking down the barrel of having to shut up shop.
Instead we will import timber from third world countries that have no environmental policies and will decimate the landscape

 

[northmanlogging]

I would assume the increase in productivity for the logging crews would mean increased profits per tree harvested.
With all the advances being made in equipment and technology whilst making the job safer and less injuries, the machines will be replacing guys and girls on the ground costing the industry jobs.
With the outfits floating in large machines to harvest small lots that don’t always make monetary sense, is this just because they don’t have any larger more suitable lots to harvest so they have to take what they can get?
Or is it that the smaller contractors with smaller gear and hand fallers etc have been pushed out business?
The lack of timber to harvest is only going to get much worse. Here in Victoria australia we have a long history of native hardwood looking that has employed both directly and indirectly a **** load of people. As of a couple weeks ago that has all been shut down and the contractors, kills, trucks etc are all looking down the barrel of having to shut up shop.
Instead we will import timber from third world countries that have no environmental policies and will decimate the landscape

I think its simply that they've cut everything available and are hard up for work, the mechanization has already put an S load of folks out of work. The small outfits like myself are few and far between, we stay busy, and we will always have that niche of being easy to move in.
Its hard to see an industry die, its why I got into machining in the 1990's, logging around here was on life support and not looking like it would survive the night...
anyway, good luck in Oz, there is always a demand for lumber, its a matter of where they gonna get it.

 

[slowp]

Maybe talk to some yoopers and up nort loggers. They've been mechanized longer than PNW loggers. I do recall being told that they have to have jobs lined up year round to make payments, and their processors were pretty sophisticated at the time. But it was all flat ground compared to here. The forwarders would tip over on ground I'd consider to be gentle.

One guy in Warshington said he got into some trouble and did tip over with his processor. The machine has a leveler and it can make you feel safe on too steep of ground if you don't pay attention. At that time, they weren't into anchoring it to anything. All of these guys were using grapple skidders--no forwarders at that time. Another outfit moved over to the west side and ended up using their forwarder as a guyline stump for the Koller yarder they procured to log skyline units. The log sizes preferred by the mills were not what the forwarder would carry. They were paid less for their shorter logs.

The other item is looks. I have cringed to see some of the visual results of having mechanized equipment on steep ground. In full view of Hwy 12, there have been instances of anchoring shovels to stumps and yarding logs down the hill and it looks like crap. Can't be all that great for soils either, but was cheaper than using a yarder. Thank goodness trees grow back quickly.

Even though it isn't scientific, how units appear to the general public during and after logging is important. Most loggers understand that now.

 

[northmanlogging]

Maybe talk to some yoopers and up nort loggers. They've been mechanized longer than PNW loggers. I do recall being told that they have to have jobs lined up year round to make payments, and their processors were pretty sophisticated at the time. But it was all flat ground compared to here. The forwarders would tip over on ground I'd consider to be gentle.

One guy in Warshington said he got into some trouble and did tip over with his processor. The machine has a leveler and it can make you feel safe on too steep of ground if you don't pay attention. At that time, they weren't into anchoring it to anything. All of these guys were using grapple skidders--no forwarders at that time. Another outfit moved over to the west side and ended up using their forwarder as a guyline stump for the Koller yarder they procured to log skyline units. The log sizes preferred by the mills were not what the forwarder would carry. They were paid less for their shorter logs.

The other item is looks. I have cringed to see some of the visual results of having mechanized equipment on steep ground. In full view of Hwy 12, there have been instances of anchoring shovels to stumps and yarding logs down the hill and it looks like crap. Can't be all that great for soils either, but was cheaper than using a yarder. Thank goodness trees grow back quickly.

Even though it isn't scientific, how units appear to the general public during and after logging is important. Most loggers understand that now.

One of the concerns I have about Tethering, is erosion, the whole point of using yarders on ground like that was to keep the tracked machines on the flat ground, its not like they send a dozer down to flatten everything out when they are through with it. That and the clock is ticking until some moron pushes his tethered machine to far and something lets go... whole lotta nope for me. Though it is stupid efficient, I don't think its the best thing for long term timber harvests either.
To be clear in general, FS and DNR only cut what they need to, cause they manage the forests. Some of the industrial folks cut as much as they can when lumber prices are up, and they are running close to out at the moment. plenty and I mean plenty of timber to go around, but only if we don't run out and cut it all down this coming summer just because prices are high this year, cause there is certainly the machinery to do it.

 

[catbuster]

From a business perspective, once the equipment is bought and not paid for the cash flow has to be there to keep the payments going. An owner will start to take work they wouldn’t normally, and it can lead to using that equipment in less than ideal situation. I’ve been there and done that. It really sucks. And as you’ve said, with the bigger gear you finish more work faster, which keeps cash flow high in the short term, but eventually the work runs out and you’re in a tight spot.

From a silviculture standpoint… Tethering is a ****ing disgusting process. It tears up the ground like you would not believe, and leaves the site a mess which is not impossible, but just flatly harder than it needs to be to replant. High lead and skyline rigs and hand falled timber have much less impact on the ground. Not only that, but you can pick up on your skyline and/or haulback and drop line and literally fly your logs over riparian areas as needed, especially if the trees are bucked in place.

I’m not a fan.

Edited for accuracy with high lead rigs.

 

[wowzers]

I’m not a fan of it either and think it will fade away like the cut to length did here. The argument I hear is that companies can’t find hookers. Well wages have been stagnant if not decreased with inflation with record high log prices.

Before I quit logging I got to hook behind a couple tether cut strips and it was a nightmare.