When lion tailing works

[Stumper]

Carl, All three things are at work. Lack of mass dampening, increased tip growth, and more rapid branch taper due to eliminating starch storage sources too early. Never underestimate the efects of mass dampening on limbs. A very small amount of weight is needed to change vibrational characteristics/patterns of oscillation.:angel:

 

[Guy Meilleur]

I try to let the tree tell me what to cut. If an inner branch has good green on it and is aimed to where it can develop for a while, I'd leave it. If not, remove it.

Live oaks are something special, in terms of naturally open interiors and rot resistance. Yes thinning suckers, maybe 1/3 per visit, is better than reclipping over and over. The tree is saying it needs more food, and clipping them starves it!

Wiley it's a separate thread, but you're right about over-deadwooding some sp. of conifers. I've been guilty of that, seen sunscald on trees I cleaned. The habitat for microorganisms we don't understand too well is also good to keep.

 

[xtremetrees]

Well this brings up the point ":Suckers drain a tree or contribute to a trees growth. " well which is it?

Try hanging on upside down safetied in only. Its often the case

 

[xtremetrees]

Keep it on topic Rocky . And please read the threads before you post

:angel:

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Re: 'On Topic'?

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel

xtreme, you are performing hack work by gutting and lionstailing trees to the point of creating profuse sucker growth.

Rocky what is the point of slamming a guy who is obviously trying to work out how much thinning is right for the tree?
Let's work with the topic instead of flying off the handle ok? Rereading xtreme's posts shows he's trying to do the right thing.

Let's look at the last pic he showed, of the oaks over the street. I'd do very little thinning on those, just snipping off the dead and weak sprouts the tree is going to shed anyway and leaving the good-looking ones which are the most vigorous photosynthesizers.

That should make both the public and the trees happy. What would you do with those trees? Be nice and be patient, ok?:angel:

 

[xtremetrees]

Being a brain sucker Hey thats a price I'm willing to pay for the trees.
Ty sir! May I have another.Post!
This thread will be read by approximately 20,000 readers of said newspaper.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Originally posted by Stumper
Quercus virgiana tends to naturally have a very open center when mature/"overmature" but don't mistake that for lionstailing. Lionstailing IS a very common practice on Live Oaks-it pushes the tree into an overmature appearance early. It is still bad. cleaning the interior enough to show the scaffold branches is one thing, stripping out the whole branch another. Take a drive around a neighborhood with lots of Live Oaks after a hurricane. The ones that were lionstailed the worst tend to have the most damaged and broken limbs. The reason is that stripping the limbs eliminates mass dampening and leaves most of the weight and sail on the tips where weight and sail have the most leverage. Result: more whipping , greater stresses , more breakage. Don't lionstail.:angel:

youve saved me a lot of typing as youve hit the nail on the head lions tailing is definatly a bad practice ,the worst tailing ive seen is carried out by the aussies on eucolyptas,

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Originally posted by wiley_p
I think the oaks may look like they are doing well, but regardless lion tailing destroys branch taper. That is the worst side effect of it also deadwooding is not needed unless the material is of a size to be considered hazardous. Deadwooding keeps tree climbers busy. In the case of pines and other conifers good habitat is destroyed by removing int3rior deadwood, as well as exposing thin upper bark to the evil ball of fire in the sky.

sorry my friend ,hate too disagree ,deadwooding is a DEFINATE MUST..it stops potential build up of un wanted pests ,makes an ameinity area safer,looks more atractive,dead pine branches are simply out shaded branches that are of no more productive value too the tree...back too deadwooding ..dead wood in large broadleafs is usualy a mix of diseased /pest attacked and shaded wood now this cant be good too leave in....my experience tells me that leaving dead would hinders codit.obviously leave trees alone in a natural enviroment ..but urban /ameinaty trees are not in a natural setting...no offence intended...

 

[jamie]

deadwood

i feel that deadwooding should only take place when there is a target to hit, in a street - yes, in a wood by a path - yes, in the middle of a field / wood where few people venture keep it there, hell leave dead trees, think of all that saproxylic habitat for all those 'pests'

remember the best way to get rid of these pests is tyo get rid of all the trees....better start cutting


jamie

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Re: deadwood

Originally posted by jamie
i feel that deadwooding should only take place when there is a target to hit, in a street - yes, in a wood by a path - yes, in the middle of a field / wood where few people venture keep it there, hell leave dead trees, think of all that saproxylic habitat for all those 'pests'

remember the best way to get rid of these pests is tyo get rid of all the trees....better start cutting


jamie

itake it we are thinking on the same lines

 

[jamie]

deadwood

i did my dissertaion at uni on deadwood habitat ecology.......so if its in teh middle of nowhere it stay parks, gardens etc etc it goes.....my boss gets a bit pissed as i will chase stuff he says is to small

jamie

 

[xtremetrees]

Thanks
This thread took approximately 4 hrs to compile from climbers and Arborist throuout the Northern Hemisphere and Europe.

I'd like to thank all of you Arborist and climbers alike for responding to this thread of lion tailing, the community of which I am educating appreciate your interspection, experience, dedication, hard work, and study.

I think stumper had the best post to me when he said " it pushes the tree into a overmature appearance early."

 

[PRUNER 1]

jamie, i too get wrong for getting every last bit of deadwood, coz once u get down u dont want to go back up coz u missed a bit, so s*d em if they moan. a job isnt worth doin unless done properly

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Stumper
Carl, All three things are at work. Lack of mass dampening, increased tip growth, and more rapid branch taper due to eliminating starch storage sources too early. Never underestimate the efects of mass dampening on limbs. A very small amount of weight is needed to change vibrational characteristics/patterns of oscillation.:angel:

I agree whole heartly that it only takes little weight to change the vibrations of anything. My main point was that the main effect, IMO, to early limb failure wasnt the change in vibration, rather the added mass to the end of the limb (leveraged against the length of the limb), and increased "sail" area (also leveraged against the length of the limb.

To my mind, the mass dampening is a cause, but it is the lest (or lesser) of the three, IMO.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Originally posted by Lumberjack

To my mind, the mass dampening is a cause, but it is the lest (or lesser) of the three, IMO.

It is a part of the equasion.

The "moment of bend" is displaced from where the tree developed to deal with it.

You have more movement, and more violent movement.

The sail effect is not really more, but youve changed the way the tree reacts to it.

I've seen a few cases (very few) where removing a heavy deadwood load (Gleditsia all) has caused wind related (moderate wind) limb failure.

Taper is caused by two factors

1. the movement of the limb
2. proximity to photosynthates and the ability of the tree to move the "assimilates"
   [/list=1]
   
   so by stripping the tree we expose finer branching to excessive wind movement and restrict the trees ability to generate new tissue (larger growth rings in reaction wood) to compensate for the movement.
   
   The the tree reacts to the loss by shooting up a bunch of sprouts. By doing this it uses up stored reserves in the xylem.
   
   Then we go there and skin off all the the sprouts from last year causing the tree to shoot out more. This can lead to a cycle of decline. In large tres it can take years and every one wonders why for, since we took so good care of it.
   
   The reason I've gone away form saying "suckers" is because this is really an orchard term used with grafted stock. a root sprout can reduce the performance of a grafted variety and overtake the economicly desirable stock. One could say it is sucking th life out of the tree.
   
   Epicormic sprouting, escpecially exsesive sprouting, is usually a sign of stress or even decline in a tree. Removal of these structures will only exacerbat the problem. we should find out the root cause(s) before we get out the saws.

 

[xtremetrees]

Originally posted by Lumberjack
Yeah, dont do it to start with, and if someone else does it, dont do it again to "fix the tree" rather train the sprouts back into inner laterals rather than removing them.

As for a spray, I dunno.

Most of the trees are beyong the training of sprouts back into inner laterals.

This pratice of lionstailing started about 20 years ago here. So ther is profuse sucker growth. Some that have not been maintained for several years look almost like hairy trees there are so many suckers, Almost into another species altogether. My goal is to find some form of chemical to apply to this epinasty.

How about a anitgibberellin? Or is that like maguet and systemic?
Or a plant growth regulator? Is that the same as antigibberellin?

The idea is to apply it directly after removing sucker growth. I know that some chemicals are so toxic they have to be systemic.
But others I do not know about. Any suggestions? Chemically? Im sure lineworkers have most experience in this area.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I'm not sure I understand your question. You want to use chemicals to stop people from overprunning the trees?
How would you apply it, to every person around the tree, or rig some device to spray people when they get close, or what?
Although I kinda like the idea of hurting people who do this to trees, I'd think you need a permit or something.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Using an NAA product in a paint or oil will reduce the amount of resprouting around a cut. Carry a spray bottle or backpack along with you and spray after several cuts.

I do this on malus and prunus regularly, but not usually while climbing.

Using the oil will allow light to pass through and still hold the product on to the tissue.

As for training sprouts to form inner canopy, it is never too late. Once a small branch is the only body supplying assimilates to the node, it will start to fill out rather quickly. in tree time that is.

Thinning the sprouts will also reduce further sprouting by maintaining the natural occuring hormones in the region.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I still don't get it

Live Oaks with suckers growing all over the leads LOOK LIKE CRAP! I've never trimmed a L.O. yet where the customer asked me to 'be sure to leave all those suckers'.

 

[MasterBlaster]

It has nothing to do with the health of the tree. Its all about the asthetics!