when you judge its OK to break the rules

[murphy4trees]

Years ago I got a job to remove a large tulip that had been struck by lightning many months before... The whole top of this monster was broken off and hanging on a large branch about 65-75' up.... The live branch was close to 12" in diameter...
I got there monday morning only to find that another climber had set two lines in a twin lead, which was in good shape... You could actually see plenty of daylight right through the middle of the bad trunk, well below the limb and hung top.....
So I know what happenned... the other climber took a look at the split and rot and bailed.... Well I had just gotten a big shot, so out it came and I set a 240' high v 1/2" line around the live branch and tied it through a block set in the woods, to a 1 ton van..... It took about three or four tries going up and down the driveway with the van... each time backing up to get a little more speed, until the branch finally broke and the whole top came tumbling down....

Not long after the other climber shows up.... if looks could kill....
He was pissed.... I went to high school with him.... Turns out he went to go get a crane, which was on its way.....
The rest of the tree was on the ground in one cut...
So I never left the ground... took care of a dangerous tree in two or three hours with very litttle risk to life and property and saved the customer about $1,000. And I Am sure I overloaded that high v well past the 10% SWL.... Which would be about 770 lbs.
That particular line never got a lot of play cause it was just too long for most applications... but when neede it was nice to have... And I ended up loosing it out of the back of the truck a little while later...

In retrospect did I do the right thing???

 

[wiley_p]

That's a tough one, if I had been the climber that had changed my mind after starting the tree, and decided for safety issues that I needed a crane(but was the crane really needed?) if you could pull it with your van, sounds like there was a large dz. On the other handif it was the most prudent way to deal with the assignment and I had a contract with the client then that would develop into a untenable situation. I think the thing that was unsound was you using a lifeline #1 in a rigging situation, very taboo in my book, and also it was of much too small a diameter for the load you were putting on it most certailny you exceeded the printed tensile strentgh and the only good thing is it fell out of your truck and it wasn't used by you again.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i do a lot with 1/2" lines too, but if that was a lifeline (don't really see that mentioned)i would downgrade it immediately of course. That much banging, prolly wouldn't go for real rigging too, lots of line to 'lose' that way.

Hope the growing impacts where well metered to avoid any rocking back etc. in responce to pulls.

But you might have saved your life, or the other climber's working from the ground. Customer that okayed the crane, should be happy to pay for the rope, but ya were due to lose it anyway, someOne mighta been watching....

i think part of a 10/1 etc. rule is to maintain future safety against future rope failure. Technically ya mighta been using it for overhead lowering......, some might say that is a pulling scenario and has less SWL requirement than 10/1.

Glad ya made it here thru that!

:alien:

 

[murphy4trees]

I might have used that line on extrememly rare occasions to climb, and even then mostly as a second life line... It was 99% rigging line... had a little glazing from a natural crotch rigging day or two. I wouldn't climb on it today though...I didn't know then what I know now...

 

[Lumberjack]

From what I am seein in my minds eye, the top was on the trunk that had the large defect.

What woulda happened if it(the trunk) woulda failed?

Since we cant see the situation in person, I would say (like anyone cares) that you did the right thing.

Sometimes you gotta think outside the box to get the job done.

 

[topnotchtree]

I am kinda confused, The homeowner hired 2 different poeple to do the same tree? If the first guy bailed and went to get the crane, did the homeowner call you for a second opinion, or second quote?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I will sometimes exceed the 10% SWL , then downgrade the rope. Maybe sell it to my client for .10/ft cash.

In your case, you used maybe $180 of rope to blow the job out quick. Just factor something like that in and get rid of it.

The 10% is because we use the rope long term with dynamic loads. A high safety factor because of all the unknowns.

If you're going to use a 10,000# rope 5 times then a factor of 5 or maybe even 3 is not a bad thing if you know what you are doing. Especially if you take the dynamic part out of the equasion.

 

[murphy4trees]

Well the second part top the story is about hiring two contractors...
I originally dealt with the wife.... I spotted the tree and brought it to her attention while we were cleaning her gutters...
She said she had had an arborist examine the tree in the spring, after it had been struck, and gave it a clean bill of health.... I brought a flashlight over to show her that night 'cause the top was hanging over a car in her driveway... I told her I'd call her with a price in a day or two..
I called back three days later and talked to the husband... he gave me the go ahead.... that was friday night... I showed up monday morning.... turns out he thought i was the guy his wife had hired in the mean time...
I just wanted to see if I could get the job done my way....
She used the opportunity to talk me down on the price and then never would do business with me again, because her neighbor had recommended the other guy.... she blamed me for causing a rift with the neighbors...

 

[topnotchtree]

Sounds like a mess right from the get go! I had kinda the same story about 8 or 9 yrs ago. Went out to bid a job elevating a few trees in the front yard, and trimming a maple in front of the house off the roof. The guy gave me the go-ahead. We show up there sat morning and nobody answers the door. We figured the saws would get them outta bed. We were there long enough to evevate a few trees in front,and clean-up.I was in the maple pulling limbs off the roof when the lady comes out and wonders what the hell we were doing? She said she never authorized any work at all! At this time the guy I talked to comes out. She says he is not her husband and has no right to authorize work on her house! The guy clams up like a henpecked wussie, and denies my story. We were never paid. That was the only time I have been screwed by a customer.

 

[topnotchtree]

And yes, I am SURE I was at the right house!

 

[SilverBlue]

Daniel, I was wondering how the other climbers fit into the situation.
So you intentionally used this method to keep the job? And what would have happened if the takedown did not work out as planned? In retrospect the crane option would have been more professional of course. And if disaster did happen the other company would have had reason to gloat and crap all over your reputation.
Nowadays who keeps a record of compromised ropes and tags them for positive identification and who relies on memory?

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

ive had scenes like that no end of times husband says this! wife says that! at the end of the day you saved her $1000 and got the tree down safely

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I have done a simular job with a standing dead Kahikatea, the barrel was about 7feet DBH and it had been dead a long time(inside was a rotten mess!) But in some completely random parts here and there the wood was still sound.
I wasnt around much that was valuable but with it being dead so long you couldnt rely on it to play buy the rules and I REALLY didnt want to climb it.

My concern was some of the top snapping out while I was felling it from the bottom as already the ground around it was littered with big limbs. (job for a mate, no money for a crane)

I throw lined a 16mm bullrope into its forks and then to my truck and proceeded to tear them off that way. Those that would go got a bill of (it will hold there) health.

scarfed it, and pulled it over with the truck. (and even then it didnt want to follow the rules of direction) We were finished by just after lunch. He broke out the drink and the rest is rather fuzzy history.

 

[BigJohn]

What "rule" did you break. I break the rules every day. All is fair in love and war. Is there a rule against slamming a rope? The ropes we use are unblievably strong in contrast to some the limbs we rope out. I have seen some really big pieces come down on a half in line and then I have seen smaller pieces come down on the same 1/2 inch line and fail. If's really important to retire ropes or to downgrade the line. My company is a big fan of the true blue for lowering. I hate the amount of stretch in it. When your takeing huge pieces that you shouldn't be takeing on a half inch line the stretch is exagerated and you run into clearance problems. The first thing I do is to slam the hell out of a new true blue to get the stretch out. I love to test the rope everyday in situtations where its OK to break a line.

 

[topnotchtree]

I love to test the rope everyday in situtations where its OK to break a line...............



Thats always fun ain't it? It always amazes me how much a rope actually will hold!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

If i go to bend a rule, i try to understand the mechanichs i am invoking, and then only bend one,then that minimally to the situation. also making sure that it mechancihally only disturbs one point in the equation.

i think in this way, you can forge against (as much as possible) a dominoeing of compounding events, multiplying against you in that in-stance.

Orrrrrrrrrrr something like that
:alien:

 

[murphy4trees]

Big Jon,
I always thought you were pretty reasonable on the ropes... Taking a few more cuts than I would in many situations... I always thought you were being kind to those ropes... Maybe you werwe just on your best behavior...

How much force do you think was involved in the pull with the van scenario:
Put a porta wrap on a one ton van full of tools... tie on about 150' of high V and get the van going at about 5-10 mph downhill on a steep driveway. My guess would be 3-4000 lbs... The last couple of feet of the rope had a pretty good melt mark were the running bowline snugged down... The stretch in the rope minimized shock load... Just a quick decleration....

 

[BigJohn]

Yeah I try to behave when useing your ropes. I see how you get when they show the first sign or wear or used through a natural crotch. But where alot work gets done everyday and I have to be back at the shop by 4 things go a little differently. However if would like to see how much a rope will take just say the word.

Roachy says I am to liberal with our crane operator. Not sure if liberal is what you would call it. But what he means is if the opperator says he can take a certain amount no matter how big I'll give it to him. I just make sure I am not in the path if the boom if it is going over. Maybe I can make that my new goal, to bring a crane down. How many of you here have done that? Maybe we can make it game. We don't pay the crane companies insurance. That's on them.

 

[murphy4trees]

You're scaring me.... hope that's just your web persona showing....
Do you use a log weight chart with that crane or just guestimate???

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
How much force do you think was involved in the pull with the van scenario:
Put a porta wrap on a one ton van full of tools... tie on about 150' of high V and get the van going at about 5-10 mph downhill on a steep driveway. My guess would be 3-4000 lbs...

If I pull with my 3/4 ton van, I can break just about an 1/2 arborist line, just moving forward slowly.