Which ascenders?

[Scots Climber]

The Prusik knot was primarily designed for mountaineering to ascend. The prusik can be used in combination as a back-up when using a descending device. I dont think the Prusik is an ISA approved friction hitch for ascend/descend type tree work. Plus if you load 'em up they kind of lock up and have to be loosened. I learned this by hanging from my prusik (resting) when I gassed out while footlocking. When I wanted start up the rope again the prusik was clamped down so tight (I'm 240lbs.) I could hardly advance it.
As far as diameters go, I started climbing on a dynamic traditional system. We used a bowline as an attachment knot with about a 3' rope "tail" . We used a taunt-line hitch. So you can use the same dia. rope when using the taunt-line or the blake's. Just be sure you "Tie Dress Set" and load the hitch with your body weight before entering the tree. We use 5/16" HRC for prusiks, icicles,etc.

I know all I need to know about Prussik's and how to use them, being a UIAA qualified Mountain Instructor in the British Army for eight years. From your description of the locking up experiance, it is you who needs to Google rope climbing techniques. If you use two Prussik's (one for your feet) on the ascent you have absolutely no fear of "gassing out" the technique needs a little practice but is very effective.

As for it not being ISA approved, I cannot comment as I'm not and have never claimed to be an ISA qualified climber. The Arboricultural certificates I have are all issued by NPTC in the UK. The Mountaineering certificates I hold are all issued by MLTS (formerly the SMLTB) and UIAA.

I'm not here to start or engage in a pointless argument, we all have different technique and experience in rope and tree climbing. If we are going to share knowledge we should ensure that it is clear, concise and useful. The post I made that you have double quoted was merely expressing an opinion.

 

[Marty B]

We are all in this together!

Mr. S.C., I don't know what the heck happened with that double reply! I went to "edit" my reply after I posted...(hijacking, getting off subject), I want to appologize for the mix-up.
This thread's topic is "ascenders" by Gottacut. The part of his post where he asks "So do you squeeze the hitch and not just the rope" was where I thought I should chime in. In my experience I have never seen anyone using a prusik to enter the tree. The only time I have seen it used to enter a tree, was when footlocking and it was used for fall prevention with a 3' leash, hands on the rope below the prusik. We have a couple of flip lines that have prusiks, I like how you can slack off the flip with one hand.
S.C. how do you use your prusiks for ascend/decsend? Are you using them S.R.T., Dynamic, Doubled? Like I said in the title "We're All in this Together". Again, sorry, I don't know how that double quote thing happened.

Marty B

 

[Scots Climber]

For Marty B

SRT, substitute the ascenders for Prussik's, I find it much less strenuous than footlocking. In the UK a lot of us still use Prussik's to enter trees.


http://wasg.iinet.net.au/srt/prus.gif

At an Arboricultural College in the UK, not the best photo but shows the Prussik...

http://www.myerscough.ac.uk/gallery%5CCentres%5CPreston%5Ctree-climbing.jpg

A good explanation of what I know as the "Texas Kick".

http://www.newtribe.com/documents/tip1.htm

Sorry for digressing.

 

[oldirty]

i want the dual ascender. 110 bucks though.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If you use two Prussik's (one for your feet) on the ascent you have absolutely no fear of "gassing out" the technique needs a little practice but is very effective.

I learned this as "swiss ladder" while in the USMC, though could remember that wrong after 20+ years. Recondo school used it in their training for ascending to a helo skid though canopy. I've since seen catv shows of the resurrection of the course where the show the "finals" endurance contest.

I cold find nothing on youtube to show it.

Very effective once the learning curve is broken.

 

[Marty B]

J.p.s.

I learned this as "swiss ladder" while in the USMC, though could remember that wrong after 20+ years. Recondo school used it in their training for ascending to a helo skid though canopy. I've since seen catv shows of the resurrection of the course where the show the "finals" endurance contest.

I cold find nothing on youtube to show it.

Very effective once the learning curve is broken.

Are the Swiss Ladder loop/loops short enough so that you can advance the foot prusik without using your hand?

 

[Job Corps Tree]

Which ascenders

When I was still in Northen IL i was using an PMI Basic A little $50.00 hand full . Now we have all kinds of new ones. It is not so hard if you can hook up with Bigus Termitius, it would only be a short time to get used to using them. Know anyone working for a Local Tree Co.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Are the Swiss Ladder loop/loops short enough so that you can advance the foot prusik without using your hand?

Nope, They are tied so that you can advance the knots with your hands.

The Discovery/whatever channel had a great shot of a Ranger ascending to the faux Huey skid.

It has been many moons since I played with it, so I would have to figure it out all over again.

 

[lync]

ascenders

Not to start another topic I have a Question. Today I took a practical exam for a climbers position. The lead climber who watched my performance questioned weather my ascenders were safe to work off of. Two cmi ultraascenders with the new tribe sewn foot loops and slings. Both ascenders are anchored to my saddle by a biner(texas system). I told him if they are safe to ascend on they are safe to work on. 2 points of attachment on the rope is a sufficent back up in my eyes. He couldn't dispute that. Then he said that the Isa would never approve them. I told him I competed at the NYS tree climbing championships and used them in the rescue climb, without a problem.
Is it just the fear of the unknown or have I been working off a dangerous climbing system and did not know it. I have no plans on changing back to less efficent modes of climbing. Many times I will stay tied into the ascenders on a single line and use my tail Ddrt to facilitate limbwalking. I need to be as energy efficent as possible to make it through the day. Any opinions would be appretiated. corey

 

[ATH]

I have always worked with the understanding that the ascender is for getting into the tree. It then goes into the gear bag or hands on the saddle and I work off of the friction hitch/lanyard.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

Many times I will stay tied into the ascenders on a single line and use my tail Ddrt to facilitate limbwalking. corey

I'm trying to picture this. Are you tying in Ddrt to the ascenders? If so it is acceptable as long as you "spike" the line with some type of knot. Personally I take it a step further and back up my ascender with a friction hitch as well.

I talked with a climber from Davey last fall who said their safety officers are super strict on what gear they allow their climbers to use. If I'm not mistaken they aren't allowed to use 'biners

 

[mattfr12]

I'm trying to picture this. Are you tying in Ddrt to the ascenders? If so it is acceptable as long as you "spike" the line with some type of knot. Personally I take it a step further and back up my ascender with a friction hitch as well.

I talked with a climber from Davey last fall who said their safety officers are super strict on what gear they allow their climbers to use. If I'm not mistaken they aren't allowed to use 'biners

they are super strict, bartlett is the same way we have 3 saddles we can choose from and 1 style of caribiner we are allowed to use. no steel toed boots, no wire core lanyard, if you wear a climbing helmet it cant be a vent it has to be the petzl best. as for friction hitches your either allowed to use a blakes, or distil. i use to use a french prusik (valedtin) with a micro pully inline but when the safety instructer came around he told me i wasnt allowed to use it.

 

[moray]

a safety note

http://wasg.iinet.net.au/srt/prus.gif

Anyone using two ascenders on a single line, as I do, probably feels safe enough against mechanical failure since it is nearly inconceivable that both ascenders would fail at the same time. But be sure each ascender is attached to your belt. Otherwise a failure could leave you inverted or in free fall. Though it was perhaps simplified on purpose, the diagram in the link provided by Scots Climber doesn't show any such connection for the foot-loop ascender--this would be an unsafe system.

 

[D Mc]

Lync, The short answer is no, it is not safe to use an ascender as a work positioning redirect. They are not designed for the possible off-angles and they will almost certainly damage the rope in a slip or fall.

There are other systems that would be worth researching if you want to work off a single line.

D Mc

 

[Scots Climber]

Anyone using two ascenders on a single line, as I do, probably feels safe enough against mechanical failure since it is nearly inconceivable that both ascenders would fail at the same time. But be sure each ascender is attached to your belt. Otherwise a failure could leave you inverted or in free fall. Though it was perhaps simplified on purpose, the diagram in the link provided by Scots Climber doesn't show any such connection for the foot-loop ascender--this would be an unsafe system.

Yes that diagram is extremely simplified, I used it merely to show the arrangement of the ascenders.

 

[lync]

OTG
While tied in using the ascenders over a high tie in I'll pull up the tail and throw it or place it with a pole saw as a second tie in the using Ddrt on that second tie in and srt/ascenders on the first tie in I can start to work/limb walk/prune. I'll try to do 1/2 of the tree on the way up, when I reach the top I have the ground crew untie the anchored end of the srt line and do the rest of the tree on the way down using Ddrt, and double crothching as necessary. Not every tree can be done this way. For me its energy efficent. If I tied a knut above the top ascender I would have three points of attachment. That could become my friction hitch for the second half of the climb when I pull up the previously anchored srt end of the rope. As far as shock loading the ascenders I never have excess slack in the line, if I slipped I would swing as opposed to a fall arrest situation. I am confident that I would not overload the system in the event of a fall. I don't footlock, since I feel the ascenders may be a bit slower, but more energy efficent for me. I also rarely have to isolate my tie in since I'm climbing on 1 leg of the rope. Thanks for the imput.
Corey

 

[Marty B]

Terminology ?

Ddrt = Dynamic rope system?? Or Double rope Technique??

 

[GottaCut]

Ddrt = Dynamic rope system?? Or Double rope Technique??

doubled rope technique

 

[Marty B]

Sounds a little complicated.........(imo)

OTG
While tied in using the ascenders over a high tie in I'll pull up the tail and throw it or place it with a pole saw as a second tie in the using Ddrt on that second tie in and srt/ascenders on the first tie in I can start to work/limb walk/prune. I'll try to do 1/2 of the tree on the way up, when I reach the top I have the ground crew untie the anchored end of the srt line and do the rest of the tree on the way down using Ddrt, and double crothching as necessary. Not every tree can be done this way. For me its energy efficent. If I tied a knut above the top ascender I would have three points of attachment. That could become my friction hitch for the second half of the climb when I pull up the previously anchored srt end of the rope. As far as shock loading the ascenders I never have excess slack in the line, if I slipped I would swing as opposed to a fall arrest situation. I am confident that I would not overload the system in the event of a fall. I don't footlock, since I feel the ascenders may be a bit slower, but more energy efficent for me. I also rarely have to isolate my tie in since I'm climbing on 1 leg of the rope. Thanks for the imput.
Corey

So how many ascenders are you using when you use the above senerio?

 

[oldirty]

does anyone use the rox dual ascender? how do you like it?