While I'm Not A Newbie,... Why Is Using Spikes to "Prune Only" A Bad Thing?"

[La taupe]

Fwiw yes.
I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,
I did all the branch collar stuff and he looked at it and said "can you cut them flat to the trunk?"
I gave him all the compartmentalisation info, he looked and thought and said "just do it anyway"
So I did it.
Anyhow seeing as we're having fun I'd like your opinion on another taboo.
These days (at least in the UK) there's dogma about cutting to live growth in a reduction/reshape, it's an absolute no-no to leave a blind stub.
IMO with certain species this is good procedure, talking Beech, veteran oaks cherries maybe.
But, and this harks back to my earlier comment about hyenas and hippos, with others like lime, hornbeam, pops and willow there will be such a strong flush of regrowth ,within weeks at certain times of the year, that you should cut to shape in preference to leaving odd length branches with a few leaves on the end to achieve a "natural look"
This obsession with naturalness in an urban environment puzzles me and from experience many clients as well who seem rather underwhelmed with results when the tree climber is expecting a round of applause.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Fwiw yes.
I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,
I did all the branch collar stuff and he looked at it and said "can you cut them flat to the trunk?"
I gave him all the compartmentalisation info, he looked and thought and said "just do it anyway"
So I did it.
Anyhow seeing as we're having fun I'd like your opinion on another taboo.
These days (at least in the UK) there's dogma about cutting to live growth in a reduction/reshape, it's an absolute no-no to leave a blind stub.
IMO with certain species this is good procedure, talking Beech, veteran oaks cherries maybe.
But, and this harks back to my earlier comment about hyenas and hippos, with others like lime, hornbeam, pops and willow there will be such a strong flush of regrowth ,within weeks at certain times of the year, that you should cut to shape in preference to leaving odd length branches with a few leaves on the end to achieve a "natural look"
This obsession with naturalness in an urban environment puzzles me and from experience many clients as well who seem rather underwhelmed with results when the tree climber is expecting a round of applause.

 

[jefflovstrom]

I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,



Did you spike it?
Jeff

 

[jefflovstrom]

Fwiw yes.
I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,
I did all the branch collar stuff and he looked at it and said "can you cut them flat to the trunk?"
I gave him all the compartmentalisation info, he looked and thought and said "just do it anyway"
So I did it.
Anyhow seeing as we're having fun I'd like your opinion on another taboo.
These days (at least in the UK) there's dogma about cutting to live growth in a reduction/reshape, it's an absolute no-no to leave a blind stub.
IMO with certain species this is good procedure, talking Beech, veteran oaks cherries maybe.
But, and this harks back to my earlier comment about hyenas and hippos, with others like lime, hornbeam, pops and willow there will be such a strong flush of regrowth ,within weeks at certain times of the year, that you should cut to shape in preference to leaving odd length branches with a few leaves on the end to achieve a "natural look"
This obsession with naturalness in an urban environment puzzles me and from experience many clients as well who seem rather underwhelmed with results when the tree climber is expecting a round of applause.

I don't know what to say without sounding like a bully, so I won't say nothing.
Jeff opcorn:

 

[treesmith]

That's because we're supposed to know what we're doing and they don't.
There are times when the answer should be "no, I'm sorry but I can't do that" I've said that myself to customers over the years. I use what the owner wants as just a guideline not the overall pruning plan. Flush cuts are just **** whichever way you look at them

 

[SecondGenMonkey]

That's because we're supposed to know what we're doing and they don't.
There are times when the answer should be "no, I'm sorry but I can't do that" I've said that myself to customers over the years. I use what the owner wants as just a guideline not the overall pruning plan. Flush cuts are just **** whichever way you look at them

I've only been trimming for just over three years, but I've lost count of how many people I've told no. No, I won't cut your 60ft tree to a 20ft trunk. No, I won't make your black olive into a giant tuna can. No, I won't make that cut flush against the trunk and no, I don't need spikes for your piddly 40ft Palm. Often explaining why not satisfies them... or I just pull out a copy of the county and state codes and show them the fine for such operations.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.

 

[La taupe]

I've only been trimming for just over three years, but I've lost count of how many people I've told no. No, I won't cut your 60ft tree to a 20ft trunk. No, I won't make your black olive into a giant tuna can. No, I won't make that cut flush against the trunk and no, I don't need spikes for your piddly 40ft Palm. Often explaining why not satisfies them... or I just pull out a copy of the county and state codes and show them the fine for such operations.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.

So you've been trimming for three years and you've LOST COUNT of the people to whom you've said no.
That throws a bit of light on it. I can just picture you now driving round talking down to clients, telling them NO, then getting a little warm feeling inside 'cos you feel a bit superior.

I have (very) occasionally turned down work over the years if 1. It's ridiculous 2.it can be seen from the road 3. I have loads of work 4. I didn't like the client 5. There is a Tree Preservation Order on it and the client wanted me to exceed what was permitted. Otherwise it's their money, I'll suggest alternatives but he who pays the piper.....
It was the guy's own garden, his trees and that's what he wanted. I told him the reasons why it was not what is normally done and he said do it anyway. If I didn't do it someone else would have.
Did I wear spikes? Don't know. it was a long time ago, probably.
Jeff, you don't want to be a bully? Seriously, don't flatter yourself.
Ps. Are any of you worthy experts going to address my questions on pruning styles on different species?

 

[treesmith]

What would you consider ridiculous if spiking and flush cuts are fair game?

 

[SecondGenMonkey]

So you've been trimming for three years and you've LOST COUNT of the people to whom you've said no.
That throws a bit of light on it. I can just picture you now driving round talking down to clients, telling them NO, then getting a little warm feeling inside 'cos you feel a bit superior.

I have (very) occasionally turned down work over the years if 1. It's ridiculous 2.it can be seen from the road 3. I have loads of work 4. I didn't like the client 5. There is a Tree Preservation Order on it and the client wanted me to exceed what was permitted. Otherwise it's their money, I'll suggest alternatives but he who pays the piper.....
It was the guy's own garden, his trees and that's what he wanted. I told him the reasons why it was not what is normally done and he said do it anyway. If I didn't do it someone else would have.
Did I wear spikes? Don't know. it was a long time ago, probably.
Jeff, you don't want to be a bully? Seriously, don't flatter yourself.
Ps. Are any of you worthy experts going to address my questions on pruning styles on different species?

No, I lost count because people want me to butcher trees. About 80% OF my work comes due to the high rating we have on some site called Angies List and I don't need people posting pics of butchered trees with my name on them. Oh, and I don't feel like getting sued because I made a header cut and some kid fell out of the tree trying to climb it using suckers. There was a case down here where that happened already. An arborist was hired to evaluate and trim some trees on a property That was for sale. He completed the work and said all was good. The day The new owners moved in their son climbed one of the trees and fell out because he grabbed a witches broom. Realtor and arborist both got hit with $1m lawsuits.

Reasons to refuse work?
1.Understandable.
2. What are you doing that you don't want people seeing you from the road? I love driving by a place and seeing my work.
3. If it's worth my time we can work out a schedule.
4. If you pay on time and listen to the evaluation team (three arborist might know a bit more than one home owner) then I don't care if you're an orange guido **** with bad breath and a nasally voice. Just stand back and let me work.
5. Its in our contracts that we don't remove any more than 25-30% of any tree that's not coming down and that protected trees are treated in accordance with the law. If you don't like it, we won't even finish the estimate.

Pruning can be species dependent but there a VERY few trees here that react well to being hat racked, spiked and flush cut so that pretty much means we don't do it.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.

 

[La taupe]

What would you consider ridiculous if spiking and flush cuts are fair game?

Ridiculous hmmmm, the most recent was a woman who wanted all the inner leaders of an umbrella pine removed to leave a "Y" in truth I didn't like her anyway.
The flush cut thing I already explained.

 

[SecondGenMonkey]

Oh, yeah... I won't strip out trees either. Lion tail or otherwise. I'll thin it, But no strippers work for us.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.

 

[La taupe]

No, I lost count because people want me to butcher trees. About 80% OF my work comes due to the high rating we have on some site called Angies List and I don't need people posting pics of butchered trees with my name on them. Oh, and I don't feel like getting sued because I made a header cut and some kid fell out of the tree trying to climb it using suckers. There was a case down here where that happened already. An arborist was hired to evaluate and trim some trees on a property That was for sale. He completed the work and said all was good. The day The new owners moved in their son climbed one of the trees and fell out because he grabbed a witches broom. Realtor and arborist both got hit with $1m lawsuits.

Reasons to refuse work?
1.Understandable.
2. What are you doing that you don't want people seeing you from the road? I love driving by a place and seeing my work.
3. If it's worth my time we can work out a schedule.
4. If you pay on time and listen to the evaluation team (three arborist might know a bit more than one home owner) then I don't care if you're an orange guido **** with bad breath and a nasally voice. Just stand back and let me work.
5. Its in our contracts that we don't remove any more than 25-30% of any tree that's not coming down and that protected trees are treated in accordance with the law. If you don't like it, we won't even finish the estimate.

Pruning can be species dependent but there a VERY few trees here that react well to being hat racked, spiked and flush cut so that pretty much means we don't do it.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.

Number 2 severe reductions on trees (in accordance in the clients specific demands)
Note, I'm talking about Oaks etc, giving a lime or poplar a right muppeting whilst initially brutal will cause no lasting harm and will come back a treat.
Number 4. Around here, (South West France) nobody is going to pay for an evaluation team.
Number 5. Do you not have pollards there?

 

[sgreanbeans]

From France, that explains it all. It is obvious that you are here just to cause problems. Wont do bad work cause it can be seen from the road! So if it was in a backyard, it would be OK? Just trying to understand your logic. At first, I was going to try and convert ya. But I see that would be a wasted effort. Not sure what your intent is, coming to a Arborist forum and trying to argue about things that are not negotiable. So then I go back to thinking your a troll. You obviously have read a little, but not enough. Topping or what you call pollarding, does harm a tree. If you are doing grape vines or a tree to produce a fruit or tender wood, whateves. But oak or poplar,that's topping and you suck if ya do it. But, again. You know this and are just trying to get a reaction. Well, keep going and you will get one.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Yeah, he is just a hack,,
Jeff

 

[treesmith]

I worked a little in coppice and seen lots of pollards. Certain species are tolerant of pollarding, others not so much. There have been many customers remarking how healthy their trees were with all the extra growth the last year or two and then it dies suddenly, rapid excessive growth can be a good sign of a trees last hurrah or at least trying desperately not to kark it.

 

[La taupe]

I worked a little in coppice and seen lots of pollards. Certain species are tolerant of pollarding, others not so much. There have been many customers remarking how healthy their trees were with all the extra growth the last year or two and then it dies suddenly, rapid excessive growth can be a good sign of a trees last hurrah or at least trying desperately not to kark it.

Quite so.
There is a line of poplars near my old house in England, 20 or so of them 10 ft apart, now, to my knowledge they were "topped" literally cut in half about 25 years ago by a guy I know, so they must have been 25 to 30 years old minimum then, every single one of them came back strongly. Just before I moved out here (10 years ago)the owner got me to do it again, back to the old cuts, easy peasy. Now I was back last year and they are all as good as gold with strong regrowth.
Now at the moment they are maybe 55 years old and have another haircut or two ahead of them. Probably too big a time gap to be considered Pollarding but it's in the ballpark.
If they had been left to their own devices they would be far to big for their situation (both in regards to each other and the houses) so in other words they would have been felled and removed, and the owner would have lost his windbreak/screen. Perfectly good tree management. But considered hacking by some no matter the species, location or other factors.
Ps So tree smith knows something about Pollarding and coppicing any one else?

 

[sgreanbeans]

We know lots about it and it has its place, the urban environment is not one of them. If a tree is maintained properly, it can get as big as it wants, right next to a house. But people get scared and a hacker shows, says "I can fix it, it just needs to be topped". So, like the tool that he is, he goes and gives it a nice hat rack, it grows back, then it is done again and again, reducing to old cuts. Over a few years, it forms a big nasty pollarding head at the stub with a ton of bad attachments, creating a hazard and liability, usually over a side walk or street or worse, in a back yard, ya know, where no one can see your bad work, where the little kids play under the tree with large epi's, that will start dropping. The hacker, thinks he did a good job, the HO knows no better as he is relying on bubba to do whats right. But bubba, what is right by him is to do the bare minimum and get the most, lie to the HO about the health of the tree and moves on to the next. This is not perfectly good tree management, it is Domestic Tree Abuse. Your arguments are invalid, your trying to sell a turds to plumbers. We are not interested in buying your BS.

 

[La taupe]

"The urban environment is not the place for pollards" genuinely laughable nonsense, it's exactly the place (clearly you know very little about it)
"A tree can get as big as it wants, right next to a house" unbelievable and dangerous rubbish.
There is a growing school of thought that completely rejects any form of reduction, or at the most accepts only the lightest tickle with a thin, I suspect this comes at the college level and filters it's way into professional organizations.
Remove or Leave is a term I've heard.

 

[SecondGenMonkey]

Number 2 severe reductions on trees (in accordance in the clients specific demands)
Note, I'm talking about Oaks etc, giving a lime or poplar a right muppeting whilst initially brutal will cause no lasting harm and will come back a treat.
Number 4. Around here, (South West France) nobody is going to pay for an evaluation team.
Number 5. Do you not have pollards there?

4. We send one arborist to do the estimates. An estimate includes an evaluation as far as general tree health and practicality of what the customer desires are. It's free.
An actual full evaluation is a different story. We do safety and health evaluations for the county, private schools and businesses. That's a by the hour rate because we may evaluate 50-80 trees in a day and writing up full evaluations on each one with our suggestions and concerns for each tree.
We also do "failure summaries" for insurance companies if a tree fails and they need a second opinion as to what caused the failure. Often we find its because of topping, flush cuts, neglected co-dominates, root damage or disease, most notably gamma derma that a previous arborist either failed to notice or notify the customer of. As a matter of fact the last failure we inspected was caused by a trimmer spiking in with gamma infected spurs. Tree failed about three years later with gamma in almost every spike wound,

2&5: Yes, we call those hat racks. They are highly illegal.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.

 

[La taupe]

All very plausible except its spelt ganoderma (and don't blame auto correct)
Which sort of renders the rest of your post worthless.
Better luck next time though!