Would this tree be a candidate for bracing?

[PassionForTrees]

What we have here is failure to communicate, or should I say failure to read the whole post. If your going to act like a punk and start swearing here on a professional site, maybe you should re consider your choice of words PIG. No where do I say Guarantee at all, I actually say that you will never know no one will ever. That I have seen trees rotted worse and stay up through storms and then say seen trees meticulously cared for come down. This is backing up most of what you all are saying! So no reason for the attacks. I am not the enemy here. I am the guy who has seen so many unlicensed inexperienced tree guys just tell customers " yea they got to come down man" Thats what Im adding to this site and to the guy who owns the tree. If there is no target in the way that would immensely change the risk factor, that would be up to the customer. As for the Co dominent stems / included bark attachments there, well no duh, that's why we support trees in the first place if because of that type of growth problem, what do you do cable the strong limbs not the weak ones?? I agree that YES sometimes you just have to take the tree down. Simple Safe and the right choice. how many times do you have to take a tree down that has been left dying for way too long and now everyone is in more danger during the removal. I agree I agree. do you see this part of my comment PIG. dont get on my arse because of CT laws. I think they suck too.
Rarefish-- I solute you for your many years and agree about no affect on the rotted area's. Education and Factual results have shown that giving the trees Mycorrhizea and Beneficial bacteria aiding in stress damage recovery for trees like this when making more wounds to install hardware have positive affects in helping compartmentalize already and new wounds. You dont need a soil sample for that. If your juicing it up with Nitrogen, your an idiot. Soil samples are correct way to go in finding out about the trees uptake deficiencies. My post was not talking about that. Not to promote growth people.
Sounds like Chief is the only other one here that has some not so quick to " Take it down " attitude. Alot of post are saying the rot is going to get worse, Yes of course as it has always been that way.
again, no offense given, if you are offended well that's your problem. none intended. I am so tired of closed minded know it alls. just take it down guys who dont have a license or any knowledge or experience to back anything up cause they want to make the $$ and dont have the care in the world to be MORE than a take down guy. Any one can cut a Tree down. It takes much more to know to care for them with integrity which is also needed for the absolute choice in taking the tree down when it has a target that out weighs the RISKS! People ..... be professional on here and skip the arrogance.

 

[Pelorus]

What we have here is failure to communicate...If your juicing it up with Nitrogen, your an idiot. My post was not talking about that. Not to promote growth people.

I'm guessing most folks consider "deep root feeding" as giving the tree a NPK vitamin pill plus trace amounts of various micronutrients. Anyway, from the photos and description provided, I see no evidence that these trees are growing in nutrient- poor soils. The only problem needing possible remediation is the fact that three little acorns grew up together next to one another.

 

[Pelorus]

No, cabling is high enough up that it still allows for a good bit of movement. If the wind were to blow directly at one lead it could pick that one lead up throwing a lot of slack into the 2 cables going to the other leads. Then they would have no support in the direction the wind was coming from. The wind would then be blowing on the other 2 leads in a manner that would let them fold over, like a hinge. Or it can pick one lead up and twist on it and put slack to one cable, while pulling on the other against it's weaker side. Either of those scenarios could bring all 3 trunks down in an uncontrolled mess. At least uncabled they are pretty much forced to fall in the direction of the lean, you know where they are going, Joe.

Thanks Joe. Your post is certainly food for thought, for sure. I can envision the scenarios you described as possibly occurring in any cabling scenario, not just the one being discussed here. Winds that strong are likely gonna also cause problems in non-cabled trees as well? I don't think any cabling system is designed to be able to cope with extremely high winds or ice accumulation.

 

[PassionForTrees]

I'm guessing most folks consider "deep root feeding" as giving the tree a NPK vitamin pill plus trace amounts of various micronutrients. Anyway, from the photos and description provided, I see no evidence that these trees are growing in nutrient- poor soils. The only problem needing possible remediation is the fact that three little acorns grew up together next to one another.

Again, quick to attack but fail to read right. I was very clear. As i agree with your comment on the cabling. Nice choice of words.

 

[Tree Pig]

What we have here is failure to communicate, or should I say failure to read the whole post. If your going to act like a punk and start swearing here on a professional site, maybe you should re consider your choice of words PIG. No where do I say Guarantee at all, I actually say that you will never know no one will ever. That I have seen trees rotted worse and stay up through storms and then say seen trees meticulously cared for come down. This is backing up most of what you all are saying! So no reason for the attacks. I am not the enemy here. I am the guy who has seen so many unlicensed inexperienced tree guys just tell customers " yea they got to come down man" Thats what Im adding to this site and to the guy who owns the tree. If there is no target in the way that would immensely change the risk factor, that would be up to the customer. As for the Co dominent stems / included bark attachments there, well no duh, that's why we support trees in the first place if because of that type of growth problem, what do you do cable the strong limbs not the weak ones?? I agree that YES sometimes you just have to take the tree down. Simple Safe and the right choice. how many times do you have to take a tree down that has been left dying for way too long and now everyone is in more danger during the removal. I agree I agree. do you see this part of my comment PIG. dont get on my arse because of CT laws. I think they suck too.
Rarefish-- I solute you for your many years and agree about no affect on the rotted area's. Education and Factual results have shown that giving the trees Mycorrhizea and Beneficial bacteria aiding in stress damage recovery for trees like this when making more wounds to install hardware have positive affects in helping compartmentalize already and new wounds. You dont need a soil sample for that. If your juicing it up with Nitrogen, your an idiot. Soil samples are correct way to go in finding out about the trees uptake deficiencies. My post was not talking about that. Not to promote growth people.
Sounds like Chief is the only other one here that has some not so quick to " Take it down " attitude. Alot of post are saying the rot is going to get worse, Yes of course as it has always been that way.
again, no offense given, if you are offended well that's your problem. none intended. I am so tired of closed minded know it alls. just take it down guys who dont have a license or any knowledge or experience to back anything up cause they want to make the $$ and dont have the care in the world to be MORE than a take down guy. Any one can cut a Tree down. It takes much more to know to care for them with integrity which is also needed for the absolute choice in taking the tree down when it has a target that out weighs the RISKS! People ..... be professional on here and skip the arrogance.

Just a reminder but you were the one that came on and attacked those that suggested taking it down. Opinions are like assh0les... we all have them and some are full of shat. This was the wrong post to spout off about saving a tree. This tree is clearly a high risk little value tree. A bad combination when you weight take it down now or waste money trying to make it last and spend more taking it down later (or more risk taking it down later) Not every tree can be saved. With those cracks there is a good chance there is also a decent amount of erosion going on in the root system which will further compromise the tree(s). Sorry about the gun law comment I just figured with your almighty know it attitude you were a liberal... what is your Ct license # by the way?

 

[Pelorus]

Again, quick to attack but fail to read right. I was very clear. As i agree with your comment on the cabling. Nice choice of words.

Yes, you were very clear; originally:

Deep root feeding the root zone to establish root growth and help the tree with strees damage recovery. Not promote the tree to grow but to keep what you have as healthy as can be. I would say there is about $1500.00 worth of very little pruning, cabling and bracing with an additional 3 -$400 for deep root feeding.

Anyway, I'm not "attacking", just looking for clarity. If the tree(s) were growing in some urban median consisting of compacted lousy backfill, then I could see possible value in mycorrhizae / vertical mulching / etc. Since it ain't; I don't see any benefit in prescribing vitamins to someone eating a healthy balanced diet.

 

[PassionForTrees]

Yes, you were very clear; originally:

Anyway, I'm not "attacking", just looking for clarity. If the tree(s) were growing in some urban median consisting of compacted lousy backfill, then I could see possible value in mycorrhizae / vertical mulching / etc. Since it ain't; I don't see any benefit in prescribing vitamins to someone eating a healthy balanced diet.

Pelorus, Now this is what the site should be about people conversing and discussing things with some respect and integrity " not like that chump with the swearing words TREE PIG. Im happy to share my thoughts about this. after reading your comment I want to say wow so you only help trees that are in urban backfilled area's? I have been to Many seminars and have my own in the field results on lots of different products but my conclusion is that trees get huge and need MORE that what is available to them for many different reasons, one mainly being the forest floor is gone for many of the trees due to the sidewalds , driveways, runnoff, foundations, competition, seriously compacted soils. The larger the Tree the more it will need, over the years the less it gets, then ya have decline. weakened limbs and then storms come and some survive and some dont. I have been schooled in how trees respond to a more established root system to just start with. They have a really established root system, means they will have much better absorption and uptake of available nutrients thus seriously helping with compartmentalization and deterring insect and disease. The added benefit is seeing your results, thicker greener healthier leaves, while helping with strees damage recovery either from pruning , damage or ailments. getting the root system to start absorbing by deep root feeding/watering/ fertilizing when needed all help in the active xylem and phloem activity, which stimulates the trees ability to continue to thrive.

By no means was I trying to bash anyone that says Take it down, without actually being there and talking to the customer myself and going over the target and desires of the customers wishes how can anyone make the best decision. I was clearly voicing that I get so tired of non licensed un professionals in experienced tree guys jumping to the " it's got to come down " quick answer cause there are not knowledgeable enough or licensed to do so. Not attacking but voicing other options that have been very successful practices in our industry. I am still learning... and continue to look for better ways to do anything. In the beginning of my career it was Fert everything, then it turned to dont fert anything to always get a soil sample to no one pays for that! To the knowledge and understanding of " you have a healthy more established root system, you have a healthier tree " without pushing growth! Cambistat also has been makin waves in the industry in taking care of helpless should come down trees for years! again we are all still learning. So hopefully no offense taken. Love to hear your thoughts as well.

 

[Ottawatree]

If you weren't worried about the shed I'd say practice bracing and cabling but in all honesty that just buys time for a doomed tree. This crap about preserving trees that are cracked and obviously doomed needs to stop. People who save these trees are not heroes and they aren't saving the environment. Personally every time I come across a tree like this I tell the customer the honest truth. Sure I can work on it, buy it some time but honestly stop being so selfish! It's done! Knock it down! Plant a new one and prune it right so in twenty years your kids are looking at a nice structurally sound healthy tree instead of a mutant piece of junk full of decay, full of steel and full of liability lawsuits! Honestly this tree preservation crap is driving me mental. Junk is junk.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I have an oak with three trunks, each at least 18" in diameter. They have started to separate at the base. One trunk is headed for an out building, the other two wouldn't hit anything if they came down. The tree is in a good location in relationship to the rest of the property and has no other reason for removal other than concerned weakness due to the split at the base.

I was studying the tree, each trunk goes up on about a 15deg angle and the trunks are pretty symmetrical at about 120deg apart. It looks to me that a great deal of strength could be gained if the three trunks were braced together with cable about 30' up.

I took some pics, hopefully they will provide some good discussion. Would bracing be an alternative to removal here?

Nice pontifications, passion, might be interesting discussions, but I was just trying to help goose. Maybe next time start thread, instead of hijacking his. In answer to the original question, if I had three oaks growing together, in this situation, with that kind of cracking at the base, with one of them aiming straight at my outbuilding, no, I would not play around with cables, I would not play around with root feedings, I would remove them, plant a more viable long term viable tree in their place, go help the boy scouts out on arbor day to atone for my sins, and get on with my life.

And by the way, before you go slamming on pig, or PIG, as you like to call him, you might read his 3000 other posts before you go judging him. I know he loves trees, and I also know he has helped a lot of people. And he isn't going to risk gooses shed for a piece of crap oak clump for the greater good. He calls em like he sees em, he'scalled me on a few, and I respect him for that.

 

[PassionForTrees]

Nice pontifications, passion, might be interesting discussions, but I was just trying to help goose. Maybe next time start thread, instead of hijacking his. In answer to the original question, if I had three oaks growing together, in this situation, with that kind of cracking at the base, with one of them aiming straight at my outbuilding, no, I would not play around with cables, I would not play around with root feedings, I would remove them, plant a more viable long term viable tree in their place, go help the boy scouts out on arbor day to atone for Sy sins, and get on with my life.

And by the way, before you go slamming on pig, or PIG, as you like to call him, you might read his 3000 other posts before you go judging him. I know he loves trees, and I also know he has helped a lot of people. And he isn't going to risk gooses shed for a piece of crap oak clump for the greater good. He calls em like he sees em, he'scalled me on a few, and I respect him for that.

Then perhaps you should choose who you respect more carefully , I dont care if someone has 10000 posts when a man acts like a boy by swearing and creating conflict with someone elses points must still be in his cowboy stage. Theres more to being a great tree worker or anykind of worker and thats being a DESCENT RESPECTFUL HUMAN BEING.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Alot of quick lets take it down with out knowing more about the situation, man that just sucks that that's what you get mostly. :msp_sneaky: I take care of TREES TOO!! that's up to the home owner as long as the understanding of the risks that will always remain, Cabling correctly with proper pruning and Bracing properly would absolutely help the tree hang around much longer, Deep root feeding the root zone to establish root growth and help the tree with strees damage recovery. Not promote the tree to grow but to keep what you have as healthy as can be. Is there a TARGET like a house, garage or anything dangerous in the area if the tree came down in a huge storm? is it worth the cost and efforts to keep the tree? There are many many customers who will pay you to take care of the tree and do your best to keep them around much longer, worst that can happen is all your efforts and the customers money might bring you back to take it completely down some day. That sounds like a WIN WIN to me. BE MORE and DO MORE than the average. Understand the size of the cable hardware and brace rods you should use, with support in the trees 2/3ds to 3/4s up on the trunks in a triangular formation, and space out the eyebolts at least 14 - 18 " apart. I would say there is about $1500.00 worth of very little pruning, cabling and bracing with an additional 3 -$400 for deep root feeding. You will gain all that experience and knowledge and get to watch her year after year until the inevitable happens and you will know when for sure that time is! Good luck. And be Safe.

xu

This is your original post on this thread. Goose had already said one of the trees was headed straight for his shed. So we actually looked at the pics, listened to his description, and gave him our best advice based on what we would do if the tree was threatening our shed. And then here you come with your sermon, and you ask the question in your own words, "is it threatening a house or garage?" You didn't even read the ops post, just jumped in with your own agenda. So pig called horse#### and rightfully so.
And by the way, you pompous ass, I do choose who I respect very carefully, and you aren't even close to making the list. Saw your choice for climbing boots by the way, must be a blast to footlock with.

 

[Tree Pig]

xu

This is your original post on this thread. Goose had already said one of the trees was headed straight for his shed. So we actually looked at the pics, listened to his description, and gave him our best advice based on what we would do if the tree was threatening our shed. And then here you come with your sermon, and you ask the question in your own words, "is it threatening a house or garage?" You didn't even read the ops post, just jumped in with your own agenda. So pig called horse#### and rightfully so.
And by the way, you pompous ass, I do choose who I respect very carefully, and you aren't even close to making the list. Saw your choice for climbing boots by the way, must be a blast to footlock with.

Dont bother he is an idiot... he forgets he was the one that came in insulting people more proof he must be a liberal dem.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I'm hoping it's a she, those are lady ice boots passion posted for climbing with. Otherwise I'm really worried....

 

[Tree Pig]

I'm hoping it's a she, those are lady ice boots passion posted for climbing with. Otherwise I'm really worried....

I wonder if she uses them with the gators or without... :bang:

 

[Pelorus]

Pelorus, after reading your comment I want to say wow so you only help trees that are in urban backfilled area's? The larger the Tree the more it will need, over the years the less it gets, then ya have decline. weakened limbs and then storms come and some survive and some dont. I have been schooled in how trees respond to a more established root system to just start with. They have a really established root system, means they will have much better absorption and uptake of available nutrients thus seriously helping with compartmentalization and deterring insect and disease. The added benefit is seeing your results, thicker greener healthier leaves, while helping with strees damage recovery either from pruning , damage or ailments. getting the root system to start absorbing by deep root feeding/watering/ fertilizing when needed all help in the active xylem and phloem activity, which stimulates the trees ability to continue to thrive.

By no means was I trying to bash anyone that says Take it down, without actually being there and talking to the customer myself and going over the target and desires of the customers wishes how can anyone make the best decision. I was clearly voicing that I get so tired of non licensed un professionals in experienced tree guys jumping to the " it's got to come down " quick answer cause there are not knowledgeable enough or licensed to do so. In the beginning of my career it was Fert everything, then it turned to dont fert anything to always get a soil sample to no one pays for that! To the knowledge and understanding of " you have a healthy more established root system, you have a healthier tree " without pushing growth! Cambistat also has been makin waves in the industry in taking care of helpless should come down trees for years! again we are all still learning. So hopefully no offense taken. Love to hear your thoughts as well.

I don't dispute the value of fertilizer / micronutrients / aeration / etc. where a need/benefit is evident. In the case of the OP's oak clump, none of that stuff is relevant, because none of it is going to cure the "disease". Worth noting too is the fact that some of the oldest trees on Earth cling to life in soil conditions that are horrible. From the photos provided, I saw no evidence of decline......only separation from each other, and no amount of fertilizer pumped into the ground is gonna bring them back together. The more they grow, the more they want a divorce. I would not advocate that the owner of the property spend even a nickel on fertilizer of any sort for this clump of oaks, but that's just my opinion!

Curious also, since you have more experience than I do with regard to fertilization stuff: What happens to a tree that has grown dependent on periodic deep root spa treatments when the owner decides enough is enough, and he/she ain't gonna play that game anymore? Will the tree continue to thrive, or will it begin to decline again? It's a hypothetical question, but I'm curious to hear some opinions on this. You have a tree, say a Pin Oak with an iron deficiency caused by growing in soil with too high a pH. Sulphur & iron treatments for a couple of years, then the treatment / pH monitoring stops, for whatever reason. What happens to that oak in five or ten years - do you end up back where you started? I dunno. Mebbe pH is a bad example, so say it is Nitrogen that is needed. The fertilization stops, the soil nitrogen declines fairly rapidly....what happens? Does the tree put the brakes on, and tell it's shoots and roots to cool their jets?

Respectfully,
Dave

 

[Pelorus]

Might add here too, that the discussion was a rather standard Remove vs Cable thread, but when fertilization got mentioned it piqued my interest. Sorry for the derail, but I guess the Cabling stuff got hashed/thrashed over pretty good anyway.

 

[rarefish383]

Poor Goose, I think the Goose has left the building. This is the last I'm posting on this thread, then I'm heading back to the milling forum for a few months.

Things about this thread that concern me: Some one stated that you could do all of the cabling and support work for X amount of money.
Then, if it didn't work, or look like it was going to work, come back and do another job for more money.
Sounds like double dipping at the home owners expense?

Ask what the customer wants and see if there are any "Targets" in the way? We know the customer
wants to save the tree. What difference does it make if there are targets in the way? The little we know
about the tree is "It's a high risk tree, on a residential property, with the possibility of humans being under
it at some point". We all know "Murphy's Law". The tree will make it through a 90 mile per hour blow, and
then on some sunny, calm day, just fall down. The chance someone will be standing under it during a
90 MPH blow? Bout 0. The chance someone will be under it any other time? GOOD! That's why we tell the
customer, "Sorry, we don't want to experiment on this one, It has to go, Joe.

 

[PassionForTrees]

There are a couple of choices we all have and one you have chose to insult and show your unprofessionalism instead of understand a different value to the situation, which is being a Pessimist. Your other choice is to be an Optimist and see the positive in a situation. Many would not be so quick to cut a large tree down due to a little shed. again that is the customers choice. I said before no insults intended or taken, but you all have decided to take it the other way, and blew a gasket attacking with swears and insults. Which shows your level of maturity and lack of professionalism.
And as for the boots you pricks.... they have them in both mens and womens and the link I posted shows the mens. The happen to be so far pretty awesome for footlocking and spikes, but you would only know about the spiking part, cant imagine you would know anything of footlocking with your posts. Probably are the fellas from the inbreed Ax men show. Trying to help others and you pricks come swinging with insults. POG MO THOIN to all of ya.
Pelorus, ask yourself this question, do you take care of your body for a certain time and then you dont have too? Trees need some help to stay healthy if they just are there and we continue to put them in challenging soils and area's doing nothing is not the answer, doing what we know helps trees is another tool in your box to help your clients and expand your knowledge. Dont know what canada soils are like, but here it has been stripped of many of it's organic matter and creates alot of challenging health scenarios for Arborists.

 

[PassionForTrees]

Poor Goose, I think the Goose has left the building. This is the last I'm posting on this thread, then I'm heading back to the milling forum for a few months.

Things about this thread that concern me: Some one stated that you could do all of the cabling and support work for X amount of money.
Then, if it didn't work, or look like it was going to work, come back and do another job for more money.
Sounds like double dipping at the home owners expense?

Ask what the customer wants and see if there are any "Targets" in the way? We know the customer
wants to save the tree. What difference does it make if there are targets in the way? The little we know
about the tree is "It's a high risk tree, on a residential property, with the possibility of humans being under
it at some point". We all know "Murphy's Law". The tree will make it through a 90 mile per hour blow, and
then on some sunny, calm day, just fall down. The chance someone will be standing under it during a
90 MPH blow? Bout 0. The chance someone will be under it any other time? GOOD! That's why we tell the
customer, "Sorry, we don't want to experiment on this one, It has to go, Joe.

So then you are saying you cant see ever taking care of any trees, ever cause that scenario is likely for any of them. The main difference is the targets in the area which increase the risk to it. If its an area where there are lots of people then the people are the target and then the playing field changes 180 degrees.

 

[Tree Pig]

There are a couple of choices we all have and one you have chose to insult and show your unprofessionalism instead of understand a different value to the situation, which is being a Pessimist. Your other choice is to be an Optimist and see the positive in a situation. Many would not be so quick to cut a large tree down due to a little shed. again that is the customers choice. I said before no insults intended or taken, but you all have decided to take it the other way, and blew a gasket attacking with swears and insults. Which shows your level of maturity and lack of professionalism.
And as for the boots you pricks.... they have them in both mens and womens and the link I posted shows the mens. The happen to be so far pretty awesome for footlocking and spikes, but you would only know about the spiking part, cant imagine you would know anything of footlocking with your posts. Probably are the fellas from the inbreed Ax men show. Trying to help others and you pricks come swinging with insults. POG MO THOIN to all of ya.
Pelorus, ask yourself this question, do you take care of your body for a certain time and then you dont have too? Trees need some help to stay healthy if they just are there and we continue to put them in challenging soils and area's doing nothing is not the answer, doing what we know helps trees is another tool in your box to help your clients and expand your knowledge. Dont know what canada soils are like, but here it has been stripped of many of it's organic matter and creates alot of challenging health scenarios for Arborists.

Honestly I dont know how you are so offended when you are the one that came in insulting people. When you evaluate a tree for removal or treatment. You generally look at a few things, like condition of tree, value of tree (type, condition, location, and even sentimental value), location of tree and targets. In this situation the condition was poor, value was low, and risk to property and life was substantial so how could you even justify your argument. I understand 100% what you are trying to say, but you you chose the wrong platform for your argument. If this was a majestic oak and the center piece of his yard with a small inclusion that could clearly benefit then I would bet everyone would be patting you on the back here. But you came in and acted like you were better then everyone else or doing something different. Come in and act like a horsesarse you are going to get treated like one. Why is a guinea swearing in Gaelic?