treeguys plowin and saltin

Been over 30 years since I plowed for a couple of years. 4 feet of wet snow and long country drives in NJ. Lots of drinks offered and taken while otj.

Different here so anyone want to give some advice?

Lots of short drives that dead end into a garage. Do you pull the snow back with the plow. Back into the garage and push out? Shovel (ugh).

Does every plow/push get followed by salt? Is there a way to spend less than over a grand for a salt spreader on tailgate?

Do you always do the walks with the drives on a bid/contract?

I got more questions but let's see if anyone wants to yack about it. Went to "plowsite" and those guys are all know it alls and I am not familiar with conversing with people like that (chuckle out load).

We're gonna hit it hard this year, Dave. I'll call you tomorrow afternoon sometime, my GM Gary is on point with plowing accounts......

treeslayer said:

We're gonna hit it hard this year, Dave. I'll call you tomorrow afternoon sometime, my GM Gary is on point with plowing accounts......

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call me on my cell dave

If you are plowing lots of driveways, you should consider a "drag plow" or "pull plow" mounted on the rear of your truck. These will really speed up how much snow you move in an hour, but they do cost a bunch of money and they do not replace the plow on the front.

For LOTS of information on snowplowing: http://www.thefosterfamily.org/snowplow/index.html


you might look at:
http://www.superplow.com/pricing.php
http://www.snowmansnowplow.com/content/view/7/25/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zlVYun1QCw { http://www.eblingandson.com }
http://snokontrol.com/back-blade-video.php
http://www.eblingandson.com/danielsproducts.html#

Just a suggestion. Can't afford one, myself.

treevet said:

Been over 30 years since I plowed for a couple of years. 4 feet of wet snow and long country drives in NJ. Lots of drinks offered and taken while otj.

Different here so anyone want to give some advice?

Lots of short drives that dead end into a garage. Do you pull the snow back with the plow. Back into the garage and push out? Shovel (ugh).

Does every plow/push get followed by salt? Is there a way to spend less than over a grand for a salt spreader on tailgate?

Do you always do the walks with the drives on a bid/contract?

I got more questions but let's see if anyone wants to yack about it. Went to "plowsite" and those guys are all know it alls and I am not familiar with conversing with people like that (chuckle out load).

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Go visit your sites and mark curb corners and things like sewer drains and grass lines and fire hydrants before hand with stakes, I would say on your first few trips Don't ever paint yourself into a corner like sloped driveways and never pull into steep drives , as far as salt there are many times that we scrape clean pavement with the trucks and salt is not needed , we salt for when the snow melts and refreezes as for instance during the day and at night ice will form in low puddled areas, some customers refuse salt for obvious reasons such as concrete damage and turf and landscape damage ....Be clear with the exact time services were rendered and what exactly was done , this may come in play with any slip and fall claims , CONTRACTS ARE THE KEY ,and when work is performed precise worksheets may save your ass...here is my email I can fax you a copy of my billing for a contractor who uses us a a sub ..... It may be in your best interests to create a new comp. for snow removal services this will detach the tree service completely from snow related law suits , it is completely lagal to lease your equipment to the snow removal business to move snow ... there are many things that I have been involved with an will gladly explain to you my past experiences ... thanks eddie, [email protected] shoot me a # to contact ya.. direct..

Used to lurk around plowsite all the time....it's a silly place. Full of good info though.

I have one of those drag plows by snoman. Got it off ebay a few years ago when I was putting a rig together. The cylinders need work and the elbows to connect to the class 5 hitch need to be made, but it is all there otherwise.

I'd be willing to sell it if anyone is seriously interested. I should keep it to compliment my biz, but I'm not going to get into pushing snow in the forseeable future. I also have a front plow that I'd throw in...it's older and out dated, but has nice lights. It could work, but nothing fancy.

If I had my old chevy, I'd mount it all up and go, but I got rid of it along with the muddin truck shortly after we moved and all that is left are parts.

Too busy with work and biz and chippers and dump trucks to get around to it.

Just let me know....and good luck out there guys.

Contracts can have drawbacks, too.

I can't remember not getting paid by any of my commercial customers for many years...except when it was managed by a professional management company that used long fancy contracts to not pay the bills.

Never a complaint from the actual customer, they just never paid the bills.

Also: if you have a contract for services, it implies that you are removing the risk for their patrons and customers. If one of them falls on the ice, you are likely to be sued, or at a minimum, included in the lawsuit.

No contract: less likelihood of getting sued.
(I dodged that bullet one year by never sending in the snow removal bill! I figured that I was better off not getting paid, than getting paid and sued all at the same time)

pdqdl said:

Contracts can have drawbacks, too.

I can't remember not getting paid by any of my commercial customers for many years...except when it was managed by a professional management company that used long fancy contracts to not pay the bills.

Never a complaint from the actual customer, they just never paid the bills.

Also: if you have a contract for services, it implies that you are removing the risk for their patrons and customers. If one of them falls on the ice, you are likely to be sued, or at a minimum, included in the lawsuit.

No contract: less likelihood of getting sued.
(I dodged that bullet one year by never sending in the snow removal bill! I figured that I was better off not getting paid, than getting paid and sued all at the same time)

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I am not talking about Helens driveway down the street, I am talking about 4 promised pieces of equipment working when and where directed the only one who would get ####ed without one would be me , residental work may OK on a hand shake but not anything of substance..I have never removed a flake of snow without someone signing something , but I don't guarantee that someone won't get hurt , just that my work has been visually inspected by the customer and is done to there satisfaction ....The burden relies solely on the customer or property manager to release me from the site , they inspect point out potential problems we fix that and move to the next site , HO's simply need to poke there head out of the door and take a look ... But they still have to sign off something ....

pdqdl said:

Contracts can have drawbacks, too.

I can't remember not getting paid by any of my commercial customers for many years...except when it was managed by a professional management company that used long fancy contracts to not pay the bills.

Never a complaint from the actual customer, they just never paid the bills.

Also: if you have a contract for services, it implies that you are removing the risk for their patrons and customers. If one of them falls on the ice, you are likely to be sued, or at a minimum, included in the lawsuit.

No contract: less likelihood of getting sued.
(I dodged that bullet one year by never sending in the snow removal bill! I figured that I was better off not getting paid, than getting paid and sued all at the same time)

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I agree with having trouble with management companies you have to go thru as I have had a prob with tree work.

Thanks everyone for all the info. You cannot give me too much.

I would like to put a plow on my 87 yota 4x4 deluxe. They tell me there is no application but wondering if I can have one fabricated to this truck.

If you wanna move snow find a contractor and work under there umbrella , you are a sub and in that kind of truck could expect between 70/90 an hour for plowing and the same to drop salt , I get paid 200 a ton for salt , but I pay 85 a ton to buy it , so I can make roughly 110 a ton on salt...

We only do residential for our regular customers, go for the commercial that's where the real money is. It's the only way it's worth the trouble to me. I guess residential would be ok if you had tons of driveways within a neighborhood but it's hard to do here and then chasing that little bt of money...
The houses we do are all different, some we plow only, anything that's left is their problem. Some we plow, shovel and even clean off their cars if wanted. I don't think we salt any homes, they just don't understand or want it, or want to pay for it. Just about all of our commercials get salt after we plow if it's going to re-freeze.
I have a couple hitch mounted spreaders, the small Snow -ex are pretty good even though they look cheasy. I think it was $1200 installed? Lesco sells the same one with their label, might be a little less.

I had one of the first Hiniker reversible plows back in 2004, used to just pull up, drag, push and leave. Did a great job and was still in good shape when I sold it with the truck in 2008.

I love this thread. It is one I can only read and not respond to. It's gonna be near 80 degrees on Saturday. Hat's off to you guy's.
Jeff
Dang, I responded.

treeclimber101 said:

I am not talking about Helens driveway down the street, I am talking about 4 promised pieces of equipment working when and where directed the only one who would get ####ed without one would be me , residental work may OK on a hand shake but not anything of substance..I have never removed a flake of snow without someone signing something , but I don't guarantee that someone won't get hurt , just that my work has been visually inspected by the customer and is done to there satisfaction ....The burden relies solely on the customer or property manager to release me from the site , they inspect point out potential problems we fix that and move to the next site , HO's simply need to poke there head out of the door and take a look ... But they still have to sign off something ....

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That just would not work in our area, and this is not my first snow removal rodeo, either.

Customer inspection? Don't be ridiculous! The customer expects you to have the job done when they show up in the morning. What are you going to do, wait around for them to come in and inspect? What if they fall on their butt while they are doing the inspection?

I have been the primary contractor for some really big businesses, and I have never been asked to get a signature for "signoff", except when there was a full time, on-site manager that was in constant communication with me. If I required a "signoff" for each snow, all I would be doing is standing around in parking lots waiting for my customers to come to work.

You said "but I don't guarantee that someone won't get hurt..." ? You need to call your insurance agent and have a little talk with him about service liability. I did last month, when one of my customers started popping in some liability language last month in my agreement. Quite frankly, they included explicit assumption of any lawsuits; probably because they had no contract with me last year! My insurance agent told me to go ahead and sign the purchase order, 'cause the liability is there, whether or not the language is written into the contract.

If you are providing snow removal services, you will likely be sued someday, whether or not the property manager signed a release. I will grant that getting a signature approving the work reduces the potential for litigation and non-payment, but it sure ain't no guarantee.

I have missed 3 lawsuits over the last 28 years, mostly because of luck, and partly because I did not have a contract.

1st time: the property manager & I decided not to do snow removal services. Hence, the injury was due to an act of god, not a failure to provide adequate snow removal.

2nd time: I never sent in a bill, so there was no proof that I performed services to be sued for. The customer was a cheapskate anyway, so I didn't miss them as a customer.

3rd time: I'm not sure, but I think the lack of contract protected me last year from an enormous lawsuit. That same customer piled on all sorts of legal clauses into a purchase order this year. I have been plowing that site since 1987 without anything other than a written proposal that outlined what we would do, and what the prices were. And we are talking about a factory that has about 800 employees and is one of the bigger Fortune 500 companies.

Like I said; contracts are not always a good thing.

treevet said:

Been over 30 years since I plowed for a couple of years. 4 feet of wet snow and long country drives in NJ. Lots of drinks offered and taken while otj.

Different here so anyone want to give some advice?

Lots of short drives that dead end into a garage. Do you pull the snow back with the plow. Back into the garage and push out? Shovel (ugh).

Does every plow/push get followed by salt? Is there a way to spend less than over a grand for a salt spreader on tailgate?

Do you always do the walks with the drives on a bid/contract?

I got more questions but let's see if anyone wants to yack about it. Went to "plowsite" and those guys are all know it alls and I am not familiar with conversing with people like that (chuckle out load).

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To clear a drive that dead ends into a garage door I do this : First of all, the drive is rutted by the wheel allready and if you drive over it fresh it takes more another push and isn't as clean so PUSH IN angle to one side as you go down. When you approach the doors cut the wheel to the side of the building bringing the blade parrallel to the wall of the building. The truck would be at a 45 to the building. You can do this for the other side and the closer you get the plow leading edge of the plow parrallel to the wall of the building the less of a penninsula to will have to clear by hand.
I use a floor sweegee, I had to rivet tin to make the blade wider. Its light with good reach into fresh snow its just a pull back into the path of the plow. It get up close to the garage door, steps, walks ,cars, floors. Never mind no shovel unless yer stuck.
Salt spreaders are a good chunk so if you charge by the hour you can use a walk behind unless you use a lot of salt. I used 6k lbs last year in 50 pound bags which is exceedingly high. I look around for a used spreader, I know I will pay 6 to 8 for one that needs work. They do not last unless you keep them very clean. I would love one but I plow some areas where i could crush the spreader. In fact, I expect it. If you can find my post " Plowmandan" you can see some of the areas i hit. I can't see my areas being to different than anywhere else.
Anyway, whatever I pay for the salt is doubled to the client ( its about 15 bucks for 50 lbs to them) plus the hourly rate to apply which only take a minute while you are hitting place with the sweegee.
Yeah, i turned about 10k last season...... Ok, I guess its no suspense to say I did it all by my wittle self .... oh I had the sqweegee too. Mostly residential. This year i will have the :newbie:kid riding shotty for a couple of bucks. We may not get much but if you lived in Albany you have a plow.
If you charge by the hour first you look at what needs done and see how much its gonna take then you configure the hourly pro-rate to match how long its gonna take you do the job. This accounts for all the complete and utter hard ass complications you will have making sure the place is cleared during the season. hey, you can't go on vaca now can you? EEEYUP!
But in the end you send out a fair monthly statement which is commsumerate with the job at hand and the client is glad to see you. Plan on making money back after a few years of course but you can generate and cultivate quickly, stay smaller and run effecient without taking to much on. If you have one truck it better be brand spanking new and you have to know your plow set-up so you can fix it but its usually something very simple. The one pin in the main 14 pin connector on my 9 foot Western ( which i just adore pushing down the road with my F350 full body steel dump in low loc) Well anyway the pin broke off years ago and I use a cut cotter pin but ti works.
And always plow in low loc and always go slow as you are on an hourly rate but that only applies to you if you are plowing not fixing what you broke so get some aftermarket reverse lights and a yellow flasher so the women can't say they didn't see you. In transit to a job then drive in 4 high but don't let the trans go into OD. Burn it up quick so that leads to the cooling capacity which largly fall on the fan here to cool the radiators and the wind tunnel so make sure your fan clutch is primo as well as the cooling system. Well, the truck has to been taken care of course but I think you need two anyway. Once you say you are gonna plow i think you had better make sure you can do it without it costing you and you know its gonna cost renting something to plow. Probably what it would take to have another truck and hey, even its an a uninsured obscenity on wheel as long as it don't leak or crop dust its " Snow Rules". I am not saying to go around plowing with the main truck a hunk of junk but you really should have a back up or you will be the guy at the shop dying to get in instead of running the meter up on the plow accounts. I rememeber the words of the guy I bought my plow from : "Insurance? I plowed Valley Forge Mountain for years and years and the one time I hit someting I could just fix I told the insurance company 'I was up there saying hello and back into their car sorry and thank you' ". True story, all of it as usual

Buying a used plow is easy. I would get one to old, I would get something parts were easy to get and you could maintain it. I would look to see if I could find a plow set-up for the same truck as mine starting around 1500 and up.
Also, take out the rug in the truck and make sure the water will drain. Wash under the truck and look for places under there where the crap sits and rots. Very important to your investment.

pdqdl said:

Customer inspection? Don't be ridiculous! The customer expects you to have the job done when they show up in the morning. What are you going to do, wait around for them to come in and inspect? What if they fall on their butt while they are doing the inspection?

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Agreed, same here.

The biggest mistake around here is the guys don't push the snow far enough back when the season starts. A month of even average snowfall with no melting, and you run out of room quick.

Be prepared and be resourceful. Last year I blew threw my extra cans of fuel then there was not a drop of diesel to found anywhere you could get to. I spotted a guy with a tank on his truck, waved his ass down quick and 50 bucks later I was filled with confidence once again.
Chances are you might go off the side of the pavement and can't goo back nor forward. Its either dig or find a lateral anchor to hook a come a long to the back of the truck. Pull tight, sideways tension works with spinning the tires to slide the truck back on the roadway. So know the roads and know the crazy drives, I had to do what i just mentioned about 4 times! Whew! 3 or four days straight on baby yeah! That's when it just don't matter anymore and everybody else knows it to. You probably are even a little drunk from all the beverages the people have given you, you are aiming the truck down the road thinking of what horrid delectable you would like to eat from the gas station and are getting excited about it. Why not? You started this whole shebang with hearty cholesterol filled breakfast and have been living whatever spurts out of the coffee machine or can just grab and get to the counter before Betty sidels up for her lottery tickets that's when you look down and thank God you are smart enough to bring dry socks and boots.

beowulf343 said:

Agreed, same here.

The biggest mistake around here is the guys don't push the snow far enough back when the season starts. A month of even average snowfall with no melting, and you run out of room quick.

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Right. I was describing a method of clearing and forgot to mention to " set" the first big push as far back as you can.

Some place have to have to snow trucked out. i don't go into that myself but I can make a buck pushing snow and its good to do the tree clients when the snow is to deep to work on trees ( you don't have to charge full bore for good tree clients who have allready given you thousands in tree work). Not to mention I need a plow to do my drive. I started with a lawn tractor , wasn't workin.

treemandan said:

when the snow is to deep to work on trees

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There's such a thing??? Fifteen years climbing in western ny in a well known lake snow belt, for three different outfits, and over the waist deep snow has never shut down tree work. Scrambling over snow banks higher than my head has gotten old over the years.

Maybe i should let you have a talk with my boss, once he finds out about this too deep of snow thing, maybe i can get some light duty this winter.

beowulf343 said:

There's such a thing??? Fifteen years climbing in western ny in a well known lake snow belt, for three different outfits, and over the waist deep snow has never shut down tree work. Scrambling over snow banks higher than my head has gotten old over the years.

Maybe i should let you have a talk with my boss, once he finds out about this too deep of snow thing, maybe i can get some light duty this winter.

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hahaha they probably not gonna change the whole "shebang" just cause Danno says so lol.