Cylinder honing

[Tree Wacker]

i been looking at some saws on e-bay lately. and i've seen several sellers say that they had the cylinder re-honed and new piston and rings installed. and then they said it is tight and smooth with new crank bearings and many new parts.

i been around enough saws to know if it looks to worn just go a head and replace the cylinder and not hone one.

so what i was wondering why would they want to rehone a cylinder when they can find a after market piston and cylinder and put it on the saw.

what do you all think here is one of the saws i was talking about.i'm sorry if its one of members auctions here on the site i'm not trying to bash no one i was just wondering why would someone rehone a cylinder.

STIHL 038 MAG II 72CC 4.9HP CHAINSAW SAW POWERHEAD - 036, 044, MS440, 046, 066 | eBay

 

[sachsmo]

Because pistons are much cheaper than jugs. Most scored cylinders can be cleaned up with a few acid treatments and a light hone. Put a new piston/rings in and have a good runner.

 

[sachsmo]

Besides the $$$ factor, OEM cylinders 99% of the time are of better quality than the aftermarket stuff.

 

[blsnelling]

Nothing wrong with lightly honing a cylinder. I know of a couple sponsors here that hit every cylinder they port with a light hone before putting it together. I only do it when cleaning one up with a melted piston. Here's a pic of a McCulloch 101B kart motor. This is a cast iron liner, but gives you an idea. A NiSi lined jug wouldn't take this much of a cross hatch since it's so hard.

 

[Jacob J.]

We debated the whole honing/ball honing issue on Nikasil cylinders at one of the last Stihl dealer update meetings I went to. The consensus from the group (which included several long-time gold technicians and two of the regional service people) was that ball honing is unnecessary in most cases and in cases where piston residue is an issue, it's best removed by hand.

To me, ball hones are a waste of time and money. They've been shown to be detrimental to newer motorcycle cylinders and my belief is that in most people's hands, they do more harm than good. This doesn't mean my opinion is 100% right, but I've rebuilt a lot of saws, more than most members here combined. I've never seen the benefits of a ball hone on a modern Nikasil cylinder.

 

[Fish]

We debated the whole honing/ball honing issue on Nikasil cylinders at one of the last Stihl dealer update meetings I went to. The consensus from the group (which included several long-time gold technicians and two of the regional service people) was that ball honing is unnecessary in most cases and in cases where piston residue is an issue, it's best removed by hand.

To me, ball hones are a waste of time and money. They've been shown to be detrimental to newer motorcycle cylinders and my belief is that in most people's hands, they do more harm than good. This doesn't mean my opinion is 100% right, but I've rebuilt a lot of saws, more than most members here combined. I've never seen the benefits of a ball hone on a modern Nikasil cylinder.

I agree, just remove the pasted on aluminum, takes a little work, but the better way to go.

 

[Bowtie]

What about a flat stone hone? I ordered a new OEM 034 Super top end last year and the piston was really tight. I LIGHTLY hit it with a new flat hone with wd40 as a lubricant for just a couple seconds, and it worked great.

 

[THALL10326]

We debated the whole honing/ball honing issue on Nikasil cylinders at one of the last Stihl dealer update meetings I went to. The consensus from the group (which included several long-time gold technicians and two of the regional service people) was that ball honing is unnecessary in most cases and in cases where piston residue is an issue, it's best removed by hand.

To me, ball hones are a waste of time and money. They've been shown to be detrimental to newer motorcycle cylinders and my belief is that in most people's hands, they do more harm than good. This doesn't mean my opinion is 100% right, but I've rebuilt a lot of saws, more than most members here combined. I've never seen the benefits of a ball hone on a modern Nikasil cylinder.

I bet you have seen the bad results of a hone job though. A few years ago a man brought me a 084 he had bought from a rental center, was scored. He decided he could clean that cylinder with a good hone job, boy did he hone it, right down till there was no nikasil left, he ruined it.

If someone tells me I just rebuilt it, I honed the cylinder and installed a new piston you can rest assured I'm gonna say no thanks.

Where I work there is no cleaning of scored cylinders either, its replaced with new or it doesn't get worked on. Too date almost 20 years now I've never had one comeback on a cylinder job. It may be ok for the hobbiest or the guy trying to squeeze some pennies but when repairing for money all the possible errors have to be eliminated as much as possible.

I'm with you Jacob, honing is not for chainsaw cylinders at all...

 

[Bowtie]

I bet you have seen the bad results of a hone job though. A few years ago a man brought me a 084 he had bought from a rental center, was scored. He decided he could clean that cylinder with a good hone job, boy did he hone it, right down till there was no nikasil left, he ruined it.

If someone tells me I just rebuilt it, I honed the cylinder and installed a new piston you can rest assured I'm gonna say no thanks.

Where I work there is no cleaning of scored cylinders either, its replaced with new or it doesn't get worked on. Too date almost 20 years now I've never had one comeback on a cylinder job. It may be ok for the hobbiest or the guy trying to squeeze some pennies but when repairing for money all the possible errors have to be eliminated as much as possible.

I'm with you Jacob, honing is not for chainsaw cylinders at all...

Tom, you ornery old cuss, you is fulla crap!

 

[sachsmo]

Well,

Howz ya doin' Tom.

I will take all them scored cylinders off your hands, for 10x scrap price.

 

[THALL10326]

Tom, you ornery old cuss, you is fulla crap!

I covered my bases with you in mind, haha. I said it may be ok for the hobbiest or penny pincher, I'm positive your not a penny pincher, right,hehe

On my own saw as with you on your own saw yeah it might be worth a try and things may turn out just fine. At the shop though where the man is reaching in his wallet I can't take the chance, it has to be as good as I can possibly get it which means new. Many a cylinder has been saved with acid and thats all fine and well but when I have to stand behind the work after the man flips the bill I want to be as certain as I can he doesn't have a problem down the road. New is the safest bet, cleaning with acid or honing is not even though they may both work, with new I don't have to worry about it..

 

[Bowtie]

I covered my bases with you in mind, haha. I said it may be ok for the hobbiest or penny pincher, I'm positive your not a penny pincher, right,hehe

On my own saw as with you on your own saw yeah it might be worth a try and things may turn out just fine. At the shop though where the man is reaching in his wallet I can't take the chance, it has to be as good as I can possibly get it which means new. Many a cylinder has been saved with acid and thats all fine and well but when I have to stand behind the work after the man flips the bill I want to be as certain as I can he doesn't have a problem down the road. New is the safest bet, cleaning with acid or honing is not even though they may both work, with new I don't have to worry about it..

You are right. I was just a funnin. Plus, that is Stihl's policy! Hey that 034 you sent me is stihl runnin like a top! My friend loves it!

 

[THALL10326]

You are right. I was just a funnin. Plus, that is Stihl's policy! Hey that 034 you sent me is stihl runnin like a top! My friend loves it!

Awesome, glad it worked out for ya,cheers..........

 

[Tree Wacker]

I'm with you Jacob too, honing is not for chainsaw cylinders at all... but what i always learnt is never hone a cylinder because of the thin wall of crome or nikasil that the cylinder has.but i'm with some members on here if you can hone a oem cylinder just a little to get the aluminum transfer off and not mess up the cylinder then i would give it a try.but i was tought if it's scored just replace it with a used cylinder and a new piston and rings.but what i'm trying to say if you run up on a used chainsaw that the seller told you he had the cylinder honed and fitted with a new piston are you going to buy that chainsaw? that what i'm seeing on e-bay everytime i look at chainsaws on there i find a few that the sellers that says they had the cylinder honed and fitted with anew piston and rings.but thats why i don't buy tomany sas off of e-bay i buy from member on here that i know that it is good running and put together the way it should.unless i know the seller that selling the saw or something on e-bay

 

[ZeroJunk]

The saw shops around here that I deal with will not replace a piston period. They will put on a new OEM cylinder kit only.

As far as honing goes there are some people who can tear up an anvil with a piece of cooked cauliflower.

Running a ball hone in and out a few seconds clockwise and counterclockwise is not going to damage nikasil, and it may smooth out a few imperfections that you can do without.

 

[Tree Wacker]

The saw shops around here that I deal with will not replace a piston period. They will put on a new OEM cylinder kit only.

As far as honing goes there are some people who can tear up an anvil with a piece of cooked cauliflower.

Running a ball hone in and out a few seconds clockwise and counterclockwise is not going to damage nikasil, and it may smooth out a few imperfections that you can do without.

thats the way my stihl shop does they put just cylinder kits only.but if it's just a worn out piston he tells them it's not worth fixing so they will buy a new saw from him.but i'll keep that honing in mind nextime i find a saw thats not to fried to bad.i find a few that just need a new piston with a few lumps in the cylinder.i got a poulan 4218 that has a bad piston but the cylinder has a few lumps about middle ways of the it.

 

[Arrowhead]

I usually don't hone unless there is a scratch or 2 that honing would remove. I have ball honed cylinders with minor scratches back to perfect condition. Had several on the Partner 500/5000 style saws pump almost 200lbs after honing. If the cylinder is spotless and I'm just re-ringing, I use red Scotch Brite to scuff the jug.

 

[one.man.band]

measuring piston to cylinder fit is an art form. pistons vary, as do cylinder bore. making a torque plate jig would take a while. honing process is an art form to get correct x-hatch and finish. even removing a hone takes care. cleaning cyl after honing properly takes a very long time. ring fitting, etc.

question if all the above is worth the time/effort to do this properly, and lots of ways to make things worse.

JacobJ said it right!

nik and chrome are some very hard substances, but can be honed for x-hatch. iron cylinders or liners have to be finish honed.

ball hone... would be difficult to run at a in and out speed mimicing your first girlfriend in a dead end cylinder.
just order a new cylinder before ruining it with a 3 stone hone... it will arrive just before garbageman comes.

nylon brush hones come in different grits, and take do not material out as quickly. but these are not used for x-hatch.

we used to send bike pistons (new and old) out to get coated after beading to swain, if the ring lands were not worn.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I think there are some apples and oranges going on here.

If you are JacobJ or somebody like him working on saws for professional use and have customers expecting their saw back in as close to new condition as possible that's one thing.

If you are trying to get a junk 028 back to where somebody can get a few hundred more hours use out of it that is another.

I routinely put new pistons is old saws for people in the community who just want the saw back running as cheap as possible. Usually it was bad mix.

They are farmer, home owner, landscaper, types who ruin a saw by misuse not overuse.

A good example. I fixed 55 Husq for a neighbor a few years ago and the cylinder was trash. I honed the hell out of it.

Other day he came by and asked me what I did to that saw, said it was the cuttingest saw he had ever had.

Thing is, he won't put 100 hours on that saw in the next decade.

And, I didn't charge him but $40 dollars parts and all.

 

[sachsmo]

Yup,

I was at a outdoor equipment shop one day, the guy in front of me was a logger/tree service guy I would guess.
They brought his 460 out in a box, told him it would be over $600 to fix it,
Then told him $50 bucks for the diagnosis, they were working out a deal, like "I'll take the $50 bucks off if you buy a new one and let me keep these worthless parts" as I walked out the door.