Termination Knots

[gitrdun_climbr]

i see

020 I figured you splicers would have a few tricks up your sleeve for the cinching issue and such. Though I will continue climbing on knots for now I think I'll also start fooling around with splicing to keep my options open should I progress into using them later. I must admit I haven't heard of anyone falling because 'their spice fell apart'. Two of my instructors at this year's PNW-ISA Training Conference splice everything...themselves...so I know it's not like a dangerous practice or something, just my own mental inhibition I guess.

MM thanks for that info...I found the friction hitch thread which gave me alot of info about the VT and other hitches folks are using. Also read big johns thread on his variation, though some of it is still over my head having not used one (I think it was big john).

 

[KentuckySawyer]

there's been instances of termination knots failing due to not tied correctly or what ever reason. if a backup knot like double fisherman had been used... high probability those dead climbers would still be alive.

If these climbers didn't tie their primary termination knot correctly, what is to make us think that they could tie the back-up correctly?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

MM thanks for that info...I found the friction hitch thread which gave me alot of info about the VT and other hitches folks are using. Also read big johns thread on his variation, though some of it is still over my head having not used one (I think it was big john).

I suggest, if you're interested in the new hitches, you look some pictures, get what you need and set up a lanyard. Tie off the end of the rope to the back of your saddle so you can't fall, and try it out until you have confidence to try it out on a climbing line.

 

[beowulf343]

Bowline with yosemite for me. Usually work with snaps so I don't need anything that continually tightens down on the eye. Tried my split tails with a spliced end for the last year but don't like how they are sloppy on a carabiner. Ended up going back to the snaps. For extra security the bowline's tail can be tie back onto the rope with a double fishermans.

 

[knudeNoggin]

Achor hitch here as well but I don't back it up just leave a 6" tall. But anymore I am just splicing the ends. When I don't have to worry about untying the knot I will use a double fishermans but that is just for my lanyard.

Hmmm, you might wanna re-orient your "dble.fish." (=> "Strangle knot")
into the Anchor hitch then--i.e., tie the Anchor around the LINE instead of
the Strangle. This will give you the same security, maybe more strength
(though, as noted, that's a non-issue unless you're in a rope-break contest),
and the ability to untie the knot after loading it. See the TreeSpyder's
My Tree Lessons site for some images of this, if it's not obvious.

by 046:
there's been instances of termination knots failing due to not tied correctly or what ever reason. if a backup knot like double fisherman had been used... high probability those dead climbers would still be alive.
& in response:
If these climbers didn't tie their primary termination knot correctly,
what is to make us think that they could tie the back-up correctly?

Yeah, it's a sort of logical rub in asking for a "back-up", sometimes. I was
amazed to hear one rockclimber remark that her Strangle sometimes came
untied--holy smokes, the whole POINT of that knot is to stay tied! But in
tying knots, some folks just go through the motions w/o much interest.
046 isn't backing up his Scaffold hitch (Dbl. Strangle Noose (but not "fish")),
and I doubt anyone backs up the single; most rockclimbers I think don't
back up a Fig.8; some gyms *require* that, though. blah blah, YMMV.
(Incidentally, one fellow test-broke some Fig.8 loopknots in Spectra-cored
cord; they didn't slip. (kinda surprises me, actually) )
OTOH, the Bowline should be backed up (or, preferably, some more secure
variant of it used, such as the End-Bound Dbl. Bowline).

do a lock-stich on the throat of the splice to prevent the splice from coming undone.

Also, whipping can help, and it might be a good way to fine tune an eye
splice's snug fit to a 'biner (i.e., using the whipping to tighten the choke)!?
(Mason line--break strength about 150#--would work well in seizing the eye
legs a bit.)

*knudeNoggin*

 

[046]

triple fisherman is the ONLY termination knot I don't use a backup on. further... I'll only use triple fisherman in terminations that will not be untied again.

triple fisherman is possibly, most secure bend known and only knot recommended for spectra.

will always backup a figure eight with double fisherman.

totally agree... bowline should never be used as a lifeline termination without a backup like double fisherman.

again.... your mileage may veri

046 isn't backing up his Scaffold hitch (Dbl. Strangle Noose (but not "fish")),
and I doubt anyone backs up the single; most rockclimbers I think don't
back up a Fig.8; some gyms *require* that, though. blah blah, YMMV.
(Incidentally, one fellow test-broke some Fig.8 loopknots in Spectra-cored
cord; they didn't slip. (kinda surprises me, actually) )
OTOH, the Bowline should be backed up (or, preferably, some more secure
variant of it used, such as the End-Bound Dbl. Bowline).
*knudeNoggin*

 

[moray]

triple fisherman is the ONLY termination knot I don't use a backup on. further... I'll only use triple fisherman in terminations that will not be untied again.

will always backup a figure eight with double fisherman.

totally agree... bowline should never be used as a lifeline termination without a backup like double fisherman.

With all due respect, I find all this backup talk a bit weird. Backing up a knot just creates a bigger, more complicated knot. Do you back it up as well? Would you back up a double fishermans with a double fishermans? Would this count as a quadruple fishermans?

Why not pick the simplest knot that you trust to do the job for the time required--say one day for the climbing rope. Triple fishermans would fill the bill for almost anyone, I would think. Almost any other termination knot, followed by a "backup" knot, is going to be more complicated and slower to tie. I also wonder if it is really any more secure. The main knot has a real load on it, and it cinches down on itself. The "backup" is unloaded, and seems to offer poor protection against the tail slowly creeping right through it.

A better backup option might be to apply a thick whipping or backsplice to the end of the rope that would never be able to creep through the main termination knot. With this method, even a crappy termination knot becomes secure.

Better yet, if the rope permits it, use a spliced eye!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You can go edit you're post, select delete, and the double can go away. Unless it's the first post of a thread, then the most you can do is delete the words, the post will stay.

 

[046]

totally see your point of view.

but I respectfully disagree about not using a backup. again.. it's like an insurance policy, your paying premiums every time a backup is used.

triple fisherman is not a good general purpose knot. sets too hard to come back apart easily. that's why I'll use figure eight backed up by a double fisherman for terminations that needs to be untied. figure eight takes all the tension, while double fisherman only sits there.

don't trust splices due to fact I don't have control over built them and there's no way for me to inspect a splice.

lots of different ways to do things. for instance, some swear by using a bowline for a termination knot w/no backup. been doing it for 20+ years. yada, yada, etc. well there's documented failures for bowlines. I would never use a bowline without a double fisherman backup for a termination knot.

here's a sad thread about someone that used no backup..
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=12827

again... your mileage may veri

With all due respect, I find all this backup talk a bit weird. Backing up a knot just creates a bigger, more complicated knot. Do you back it up as well? Would you back up a double fishermans with a double fishermans? Would this count as a quadruple fishermans?

Why not pick the simplest knot that you trust to do the job for the time required--say one day for the climbing rope. Triple fishermans would fill the bill for almost anyone, I would think. Almost any other termination knot, followed by a "backup" knot, is going to be more complicated and slower to tie. I also wonder if it is really any more secure. The main knot has a real load on it, and it cinches down on itself. The "backup" is unloaded, and seems to offer poor protection against the tail slowly creeping right through it.

A better backup option might be to apply a thick whipping or backsplice to the end of the rope that would never be able to creep through the main termination knot. With this method, even a crappy termination knot becomes secure.

Better yet, if the rope permits it, use a spliced eye!

 

[moray]

Splice vs Knot

don't trust splices due to fact I don't have control over built them and there's no way for me to inspect a splice.


I agree, 046. I make my own.

I must say, after making quite a few, I began to appreciate how well they hold. Even during the construction process you get a sense of how much friction is developed by a slight pull, how much it takes to lock the cover over the buried part, and so on. I have made quite a few Loopies from Tenex, in which the buried part is free to move within the cover. Even here, where the mechanics is a lot less favorable for the "splice" holding, you can pull the buried part with one hand and the cover with the other (essentially trying to pull the core out of the cover) and it will hold. In actual use, you don't load it that way, but it is nice to know it holds even with very unfavorable mechanics. In climbing rope, especially, the throat is so tight it is almost unimaginable that the buried part could come out under load. In something looser, like Tenex, this prospect would seem more worrisome. In an earlier post, I described destructive testing of Tenex splices--in two separate tests the rope broke but the splices held with no sign of slippage.

But still, I agree. In the case of a splice, you are trusting something you can't really see the way you can see a knot. Whether it is actually trustworthy or not is another issue.

 

[knudeNoggin]

totally see your point of view.

but I respectfully disagree about not using a backup. again.. it's like an insurance policy, your paying premiums every time a backup is used.

triple fisherman is not ...

... going to get the knot you mean by it when using Google, e.g.;
I do hope that arborists can come to disavow whatever bonehead author
adopted this name for this structure by ignoring established useage--it makes
for awkward dialogue between knotting arenas (such a neighboring ones
of caving, SAR, & rockclimbing).

here's a sad thread about someone that used no backup..
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=12827

Or who did, and botched it: as I remarked in that thread, there was nothing
left in the untied rope to reveal what knot might have been there.
But in any case, it's a matter of inattention to knotting ("if you can't tie knots,
tie lots").
At least one orientation/dressing of the Fig.8 loopknot can be seen to be
a further back-tucking securing of an old (fisherman's) ganging knot,
where the end would finish alongside the legs of the eye (as it does in a
Bowline, e.g.); and the final tucks then can be seen as "back-up" to that
(as the "Yosemite tie-off" is regarded for the Bowline (I don't like it, much)).

As for the triple overhand knot and setting too tight,
here again I suggest tying it as an Anchor hitch around the mainline instead
of that "dble/trpl fish.": the coils will be tightened from nearest to farthest
away, meaning that the awaymost coil will remain easily pried back over
the mainline, and the knot loosened--by express, deliberate effort; but no
way is the end going to somehow on its own slip through all that material,
esp. as it's pressed down against the metal/'biner. So you get your security,
your strength, and still can untie it. --what a deal!
:bday:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Most knots were devised to be used in less slippery stuff than our synthetics; and religiously backed up for millenniums. the backups making rattle proof and provide stopper to big for where it would have to squeeze thru.

My base, minimal secure knot model to compair others to, is the simple RoundTurn and 2 Half Hitches. A Round Turn for force reduction by division because of the full choke around is first available; and gives serious force reduction across board, to be more than the nominal friction footprint 'inch' of Turn that has open side. By employing the choke of the RT pushing directly back into itself/ inline to exhaust force more (and grip); we tap into a very powerful machine mechanic; at the first real level it appears IMLHO.

The 1st HalfHitch should hold; the 2nd making it dead sure/ overkill for underkill! Now; that is for most things, but the model of a moored boat in waves testing that at every angle,speed, pattern etc. will find it's way out after the many series of tests to pick this 'lock' avails itself too. But, for most other things, this is a good model to judge the strategies/ mechanics by.

The Anchor Bend/Hitch itself was considered mighty, but always got a back up of a single Half Hitch as standard/at minimum. Mens lives depended on the Anchor Hitch being strong and sure to stay put as the drifted for months at a time without electricity radio etc. In this Anchor Hitch + Half Hitch standard; we have equal/better than our RT + 2HH standard (Proper abbreviations Knude/everyone?); for the Anchor +HH is really a RT +2HH with 1st HH thcked under the RT; standing on it's own bootstrap to be better; then final HH! So, with this standard RT+HH model, we can weigh these decisions. Even though it is also kind of just an Overhand Knot with extra Turn / Half a Marl with extra Turn mechanic. A Halyard Hitch is real secure, a 3 Turn Anchor folded back over the 1st Turn, then back again underneath the other 2 Turns (that are the 2 more immediate/ greater pressure Turns).

A Scaffold/Noose takes this a step further (than Anchor Hitch + HH) and breaks/buffers some force around a krab, before the Anchor to self; and the Turn is not a hanging Turn, but one pinching back into itself around krab; as the Anchor Hitch to self seats into the krab. So, effectively weighing this strategy with RT+HH minimal security model; we can see effectively dropping the 2ndHH of original RT+HH model in a lot of materials. i like mine with bright tape as signal sticking up, to show it passes constant spot inspection at every glance.

KN & KC all ways seem to recommend the Turns on Anchor to self to form eye (Scaffold/Noose etc.); and others cross. 1 of my observations is; that uncrossed and neat, the tail as it rides up under the Turns of Anchor, pinches directly back into krab more squarely. But if crossed, usually a Turn is brought down lower to seat at krab and the tail sits beside or higher than the krab, so as to have less pressure to secure it IMLHO.

Also, i think there is a smoother flow of force, that firms the Standing better to 'stabilize'; where other knots; 'destabilize'. Also the flow is more inline; towards Bimini Twist, splice etc. that flow up the line, rather than single leg of force across line. . If we just have a construction of a single Turn choking across Standing; i think an RT around krab etc. previous buffer force low more is good generally. But, with Scaffold/Noose etc. knot; we are using the remaining forces in the 'tail' to our benefit/ to stabilize the Standing, so a RT instead of Turn on krab is undesirable by contrast; because of this different mechanic.

i will caution that a Clove should still get 2HH; even though the 2 Turns around your paw when making in da'bight would constitute a Double Round Turn as Knude taught; then crossed on itself. The pull on Standing lifts the 1st ring; that really wouldn't be a Hitch in my terms; because Standing is under it's Bitters so a Crossed Turn(?); then the lift of that Turn can also lift the pressure off the next mechanic; that would be a Hitch/HH type strategy with the initiating/ Standing tension on top of the Bitters to secure. So, even though it is another Turn towards our RT+HH baseline; i'd still not consdier it as complete with 1HH becasue of the reliefs/lifts; and would go with the standard 2HH that we see in a lot of knots as backup. Cow does similair lift, but also employs a BackHand Hitch. In each trapping tail under most immediate Standing tension that pinches into spar, which could be considered opposite side of spar as in HH with better nip; which is kinda like Timber without extra Turns around self like loose braid inbetween (just 1 'tuck' about "7 o'clock").

i do think the Y tieoff for Bowline is effective in our flexible lines. KN can tell you why/when it's knot in materials and operator error; as well as how a Double/RT/Mountaineering Bowline can actually have that 2nd ring as a liability in stiffer line or operator error situations. 2 good lessons, that i all ways have in mind to form my DBY right; even if making blindfolded.

Guess my dime is up; hope ya don't feel short changed!

 

[046]

a good test to see if you know knot well enough, for your life to depend upon... is to tie knot blindfolded.

this will not ever eliminate operator error, but establishes a bar to gauge operator proficiency. this is why I've always recommend using a backup, even for super secure knots. possible operator error... when fatigued, under pressure, etc, etc.

technical details refers to which knot to use and resulting loss of strength, ease of untying, how secure, etc. etc. which rope to use, ease of forming a knot, breaking strength, durability, etc. etc.

it's always a challenge arriving at which knots and ropes to use. Really grateful for getting access to folks with huge knowledge base.

disclaimer: never use internet as your only source of information. find an experienced climber to learn from. several different names can be used for same knot. when in doubt always ask for poster for a picture or a link to picture of knot in question.

this is a triple fisherman. note lashing doesn't improve strength/security

2 good lessons, that i all ways have in mind to form my DBY right; even if making blindfolded.

 

[moray]

??

this is a triple fisherman. note lashing doesn't improve strength/security

It doesn't?? Why not? I thought the whole idea of this backup knot business was to make it harder for the tail to start sliding through the knot.

 

[046]

please read posts above... triple fisherman is not a good general purpose knot. sets too hard to be easily untied.

it's the only knot I will use without a backup and only in situations where it doesn't need to be untied.

you are confusing a stopper knot with a backup knot

It doesn't?? Why not? I thought the whole idea of this backup knot business was to make it harder for the tail to start sliding through the knot.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

We use Double/ Triple Scaffold/Noose/Fisherperson's etc. hitch on krab; to cinch down and not shift on krab and because it can be slipped off that mount and untied if need be. i wouldn't tie it to a closed eye device like a snap unless i wanted permanent connection.

i recommend tying knots over and over; observing, L-earning their secrets, until 2nd Nature/ not all ways looking at it/ copping a feel for it! One of my favorite ways is to have piece of line to watch tv with, and tie and retie knots around thigh, on Hand etc.; watching knot less and more and more tv. i don't actually tie knots blindfolded when really testing and getting final 'feel' for knot (which is constant process); i must shamefully confess. Most of the time i tie them behind my back like this DBY (Double Bowline w/Yosemite tie off) tied with the Slip Knot Method. A very slick and multipurpose way to make a Bowline, let alone the Double Bowline/ Round Turn Bowline/ Mountaineering Bowline (all same thing) or the Water Bowline(Clove instead of Round Turn as choke on Bight of SheetBend to self to form eye that equals Bowline). The Water Bowline is more secure at the cost of some strength. The Threading of the Multiple Turn Bowlines/ bringing the Mountain to Mohamed instead of the rabbit running around the tree/mountain (for Slip Knot/Noose method of tying Bowline ) makes the Bowlines mucho easier to tie. Also, gives a stopping point half way thru, so can make the Noose, get rope swung to you and quickly finish Bowline around it etc. i 1st saw it listed as "Climber's Bowline" in a book when younger, so of course had to l-earn it! They'd lower a line from helicopter or overhead ledge if you were clinging to side of mountain. You make knot around chest with 1 hand, in it's 2 parts, Noose, then finish in other hand. If you gave out at last phase/second; you just make sure to keep tail pinched off at itself after reeving thru Noose; not makes itself and you are secure! IN tree work, iv'e let the weight of the line hanging out of tree give that pull to make knot, or some pull from other event on line or just lean back some oif other end is tied off; makes it smoother/ easier; breaks knot into 3 easy stages.

 

[knudeNoggin]

a good test to see if you know knot well enough, for your life to depend upon... is to tie knot blindfolded.

this will not ever eliminate operator error, but establishes a bar to gauge operator proficiency. this is why I've always recommend using a backup, even for super secure knots. possible operator error... when fatigued, under pressure, etc, etc.

Although not every knotted structure one will tie will be done under such
circumstances; there can be cases where you are assured of having time
to do something rather more complicated. --as you took to nicely seize
the end of your Dbl.Strangle noose.

disclaimer: never use internet as your only source of information. find an experienced climber to learn from. several different names can be used for same knot. when in doubt always ask for poster for a picture or a link to picture of knot in question.

Hmm, disclaimers about the Net in favor of in-person instruction beg the
question of how said person can be judged knowledgeable, etc.. At least
on the Net, used with a bit of savvy, one can often receive/find enough
discussion/opinion to get an idea of where reality might lie (or that it's
not as black'n'white as that experienced guide led you to believe). Folks
don't loose their expertise by posting to the Net; and incredible nonsense
has been published between hard & soft covers commercially, so there's
no guarantee on that path, either.
Best advice is to seek rationale's for opinions, and to understand that
knot schemas result in different physical entities with differing behaviors in
different cordage. (Sure, there are many old timers who shake their heads
at the suggestion that the venerable Bowline needs the slightest assistance
in function; there are sadly some who learned the hard way, in different
materials, that it can.)

this is a triple fisherman. note lashing doesn't improve strength/security

No, a Triple Fisherman's knot (better "Dbl.Grapevine"--where the modifier
"double" matches the number of securing wraps (2)) is a rope-to-rope joint,
recommended by some vendors for the joining of HMPE-cored cord to form
slings. And, with the seizing done well, hmmm, it'd be interesting to see
how it broke, as it might hold the end to take the brunt of the tightening
part's pressure and so give the mainline some more life. (Btw, I think
that Paolo Bavaresco's testing in 1/2" line put the hitch at around 75%;
I don't know where the break came. Report cited above was IIRC Bluewater
II nylon low-elongation 8mm rope around 10mm metal--not polyester.)

(-;

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

No, a Triple Fisherman's knot (better "Dbl.Grapevine"--where the modifier
"double" matches the number of securing wraps (2)) is a rope-to-rope joint,
recommended by some vendors for the joining of HMPE-cored cord to form
slings.
(-;

Here's a common version of a Fisherman's knot:

And here is a Double Fisherman's knot, double, because two Fisherman's knots are used to join two lines. Double in the name has nothing to do with the number of loops.

This knot was popularized by our industries to make loops for various purposes or to join two ropes.

The Fisherman's knot, and the Double Fisherman's knot are fishing knots, while the Triple Fisherman's knot is climbing knot, and triple does reflect the number of loops.

 

[moray]

Mea Culpa

please read posts above... triple fisherman is not a good general purpose knot. sets too hard to be easily untied.

it's the only knot I will use without a backup and only in situations where it doesn't need to be untied.

you are confusing a stopper knot with a backup knot

You are right--I was lumping the two knots together in my mind as if they were the same thing. Uhh... but what's the difference? I know the "backup" is made by tying the bitter end around the main line, and the stopper is just an in-line knot in the bitter end. But don't they do the same thing, that is, prevent the main knot, should it start to slip or creep, from coming completely undone?

The backup/stopper is completely unnecessary if you have a system where you know the main knot cannot come undone. Even though I mostly use spliced eyes, I still have to tie a termination knot now and then. My own concern with such a knot, and that of everyone else in this thread, is primarily whether you can rely on the knot not to slip. Everyone seems to know that the bowline is not entirely reliable, but the triple fisherman's is really bullet-proof. Because we really don't trust most of these knots, we tie a backup/stopper. I still don't trust them after doing that, because the backup/stopper is unloaded and can easily come undone. Engineering-wise, it seems like a really bad "solution" to what people apparently consider to be a really important problem (I know I do!).

A far better, simpler, easy to apply, and permanent solution is to apply a seizing to the end of the rope to increase its diameter by 10% or so. There is no way on this earth that a seized end is going to pull through a loaded knot. The whole security problem just goes away.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using backup knots/hitches. That said, I rarely use them...

Mark Twain said, "Never trust a man who wears a belt and suspenders, he doesn't trust anything." If the belt isn't doing the job why wear suspenders, visa versa...

For rope terminations I've used a scaffold knot for YEARS with no problems. Sometimes I'll stitch or seize the end. Most times, like my brudda Spydey, I use tape or keep track of how long a tail comes out of the hitch. At least four times the diameter should exit.

If I use any of the HDPE cords I'll use a triple wrap scaffold and secure the end because they are so slippery.

No matter how I terminate a rope I monitor it constantly.

Tie Dress Set