RE: Sawdust Gaurd.
I see, it appears to be attached through the dog holes on the saw.
I see, it appears to be attached through the dog holes on the saw.
CS Milling 101, Hints tips and tricks
- Thread starter BobL
- Start date
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BIG JAKE
Let’s go Brandon!
Ah ha . . so its more or less identical to a "bolts onto the bar at both ends" with no bar underclamps, type alaskan?
I also thought your sawdust guard was connected to your saw but I see it is not, does much sawdust sneak past the edge of the guard?
My new 880 setup has also got a little away from the original BIL Mill connection (plus more sexy ally work courtesy of BIL!) I ended up using a longer support plate because the 880 is longer at the front of the saw than the 076 so I had to move it back from the mill a bit to get it to fit.
Thanks
Bob
Yep-sexy! Down right purdy! I like the pipe tucked in nice. Looks like chromed too. What is i.d. of the pipe? What pipe i.d. do you fellers recommend for an 066 muff mod or two pipes? Pics? I'd like to redirect the fumes away on that saw also
The pipe is 19 mm (3/4") but the internal opening is variable. The original muffler was 14 mm. I made a set of 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 mm diameter sleeves/inserts. I don't want to opening it up so that the leaness increases above the adjustment range of the carby. So far I have it at 15 mm and it running really sweetly. I will keep opening it up till I run out out of adjustment and then go back one step.
Full mod thread here.
I reckon a 3/4" would be OK. Also I recommend to read the full DIY muffler mod sticky in the CS forum.
Dai Sensei
ArboristSite Member
Great combined thread there Bob 
aggiewoodbutchr
Addicted to ArboristSite
I was able to take a few shots of my mill this weekend.
Here's a better pic of the guard.
Here's where the oiler is now. I like this much better than dripping on the bar. The oil is delivered directly to where it's needed and is sort of self regulating.
Here's a better pic of the guard.
Here's where the oiler is now. I like this much better than dripping on the bar. The oil is delivered directly to where it's needed and is sort of self regulating.
Thanks Aggie - nice and clear now
That looks like a roller nose?
Putting an oil bolt into that location is relatively easy if it is a roller - it's much harder if it's a sprocket nose. Because I switch between 42" sprocket and 60" roller it's a PITA. Also i'm a bit paranoid about losing that last 1/2" of cutting length. Here is where my clamp and oil point (x) would sit.
aggiewoodbutchr
Addicted to ArboristSite
It is.
You can see where I used to have the oil tube. It kept plenty of oil in the chain but wasted a lot if you weren't paying attention.
CS Milling Risk Assessment
In rough order, my assessment of risks in my alaskan CS milling operations for green wood are;
1) Driving to and from the milling site. Funny how we forget about this
2) The Sun: In Oz, Skin cancer and Sunstroke are are serious risk.
3) The next most dangerous thing is moving the logs, rolling logs around and setting them up on gluts using a loader. Risk minimization includes, leaving plenty of room around logs, orient the logs on slopes so they won't roll, using decent wedges to chock logs, always use two gluts and double wedge to reduce chance of rolling. Stay away from side of logs while setting up.
4) Next most dangerous is lifting logs to create a milling slope. This depends on how it is done. Using a kangaroo jack represents high risk but even a loader has risks, and placing blocks and gluts under logs is dangerous as logs can roll off gluts and crush and operator. Same risk minimization as 3)
5) Moving slabs, even though I usually use a mechanical loader for the big slabs they can still fall onto an operator and crush limbs and feet, back injury is another factor. Risk minimization includes, taking things easy, sliding rather than trying to lift, using knees rather than back, using a sack trolley, levers and cant hooks.
6) Preping the logs. This is cutting off the bumps and lumps, bits of limbs etc with a CS. I do this will either a dedicated 066 or my 441. These saws MUST have all the safety fittings attached to them. Full PPE including Chaps MUST be worn during this time to minimize risk. If an operator only has one saw and they have to take the saw out of the mill to do this then obviously the saw has to have all the safety features still attached.
7) Starting and ending the cuts. This is when the full bar is exposed and loose chains can fall off. This is also a whole topic in itself. Moving a running saw on and off the log represents high risk. This is why I use log rails for just about every cut. This means I can start the saw/mill when it is on the rails and I do not have then move a running saw. Same with taking the mill off the rails, let the CS idle for a minute or two and then stop the saw and move the mill. Just lifting my 73 lb saw/mill on and off the log without it even running also has a small risk.
8) Milling ergonomics. Tired operators take shortcuts and make mistakes. A comfortable milling position that requires minimum pushing and fighting the mill is important in reducing operator fatigue. This is a whole topic for discussion in itself.
9) Exhaust fumes: Standing for hours in a fog of exhaust is not going to do an operator much good in the long term. Minimization here requires things like minimizing lube use, tuning saw, exhaust modification and getting the wind behind the operators back.
10) Noise - obvious
11) Vibration: this depends on the saw. Old saws are still very capable of giving an operator white finger. Newer saws a better but better again are is remote throttles with soft vibration absorbing mountain bike handles or using a winch (although I don't like using winches for other reasons)
12) Using fuel: obvious
13) Lifting the log rails, my log rails are 4 x 3 m lengths of Unistrut joined by lengths of 3/8" all thread rod. There are very heavy but I think they are worth it.
Then come things like cutting your hands while filing, bug bites, splinters, chain breaking, kick back, shark attack and UFO deportation.
For dry and dusty wood, dust probably comes in around number 7) or 8)
Remember this is my assessment your assessment may be different.
In rough order, my assessment of risks in my alaskan CS milling operations for green wood are;
1) Driving to and from the milling site. Funny how we forget about this
2) The Sun: In Oz, Skin cancer and Sunstroke are are serious risk.
3) The next most dangerous thing is moving the logs, rolling logs around and setting them up on gluts using a loader. Risk minimization includes, leaving plenty of room around logs, orient the logs on slopes so they won't roll, using decent wedges to chock logs, always use two gluts and double wedge to reduce chance of rolling. Stay away from side of logs while setting up.
4) Next most dangerous is lifting logs to create a milling slope. This depends on how it is done. Using a kangaroo jack represents high risk but even a loader has risks, and placing blocks and gluts under logs is dangerous as logs can roll off gluts and crush and operator. Same risk minimization as 3)
5) Moving slabs, even though I usually use a mechanical loader for the big slabs they can still fall onto an operator and crush limbs and feet, back injury is another factor. Risk minimization includes, taking things easy, sliding rather than trying to lift, using knees rather than back, using a sack trolley, levers and cant hooks.
6) Preping the logs. This is cutting off the bumps and lumps, bits of limbs etc with a CS. I do this will either a dedicated 066 or my 441. These saws MUST have all the safety fittings attached to them. Full PPE including Chaps MUST be worn during this time to minimize risk. If an operator only has one saw and they have to take the saw out of the mill to do this then obviously the saw has to have all the safety features still attached.
7) Starting and ending the cuts. This is when the full bar is exposed and loose chains can fall off. This is also a whole topic in itself. Moving a running saw on and off the log represents high risk. This is why I use log rails for just about every cut. This means I can start the saw/mill when it is on the rails and I do not have then move a running saw. Same with taking the mill off the rails, let the CS idle for a minute or two and then stop the saw and move the mill. Just lifting my 73 lb saw/mill on and off the log without it even running also has a small risk.
8) Milling ergonomics. Tired operators take shortcuts and make mistakes. A comfortable milling position that requires minimum pushing and fighting the mill is important in reducing operator fatigue. This is a whole topic for discussion in itself.
9) Exhaust fumes: Standing for hours in a fog of exhaust is not going to do an operator much good in the long term. Minimization here requires things like minimizing lube use, tuning saw, exhaust modification and getting the wind behind the operators back.
10) Noise - obvious
11) Vibration: this depends on the saw. Old saws are still very capable of giving an operator white finger. Newer saws a better but better again are is remote throttles with soft vibration absorbing mountain bike handles or using a winch (although I don't like using winches for other reasons)
12) Using fuel: obvious
13) Lifting the log rails, my log rails are 4 x 3 m lengths of Unistrut joined by lengths of 3/8" all thread rod. There are very heavy but I think they are worth it.
Then come things like cutting your hands while filing, bug bites, splinters, chain breaking, kick back, shark attack and UFO deportation.
For dry and dusty wood, dust probably comes in around number 7) or 8)
Remember this is my assessment your assessment may be different.
splitpost
Nothing but 32:1
you could also add the position of observers in relation to the loader whilst in use and the mill/saw whilst in use
A very good point - even though I have posted a number pictures of "Helpers" in the vicinity of the mill I generally avoid having anyone else within 6 ft the mill or saw.
gemnii suggested I post this here.
Originally Posted by WV Wildman
Holding and moving the mill/saw
Smoother cuts can be obtained by finding a sweet spot in the RPM range that allows the mill to move forward at a steady rate, and using a stance that permits a constant pressure on the mill. Also avoid seesawing the log in the cut. Cycling between max rpm and almost bogging the saw will create a rougher cut than holding the saw at a steady rpm
This is why I like to apply the primary and constant pressure on the saw wrap handle with my hip/thigh/knee. When I need to take a step forward I apply pressure with one arm, ease off with my leg and step forward and reapply pressure with my leg. This means I mainly using my arms to work the remote throttle and to guide the mill. Sometimes I just lock the throttle and this leaves both my arms free momentarily free to add wedges and scratch myself. If the logs is on a slope this of course also helps the mill keep cutting of it's own accord. I found this method of cutting really reduces the strain on my shoulders (I suffer from bursitis, an inflammation of the lubrication sack between the arm and shoulder) at the end of the day. This of course is not the only way to do this - as long as the pressure is always smooth it can vary considerably.
When I first started, I used to often seesaw the mill down the log. This creates a much rougher finish because the mill twists in the cut. I still do this sometimes towards the end of a long hard wide slab - the reason for this is by then the chain is getting blunt and the seesawing cuts less wood at any one time so it takes a little load off the powerhead (I can see this effect on the temp gauge). Some people think this method is faster but it really isn't much faster.
If you do have to stop cutting completely during the cut, then when restarting, resist the urge to crank the saw WOT and drive it back into the cut as this will create a rough strip on the two surfaces. Just ease the powerhead up to WOT as the chain enters the wood.
Bar and chain
Some people seem to get sufficiently smooth cuts using regular crosscutting chain while others swear by lower top plate cutter angles. IMHO a good milling cutting style (as describe above) can generate smooth cuts with regular chain but it only takes a momentary loss of attention to leave a slab wide chain gouge on your slab using regular chain. In most cases this means a few extra passes thru a thicknesser but if you are milling wide natural edge slabs then this means a lot more sanding. I use a 5-10º top plate (milling chain) and combined with a good milling style works for me and leaves a little room for a lack of attention from time to time.
Regular chain will make a marginally wider cut so a small amount of power needs to be diverted to do this, OTOH, the top plate is performing more of a slicing rather then a chopping action so it is swings and roundabouts on this factor. One thing I do not like using regular chain for is on longer bars as the extra sideways chop/vibe can easily pull the chain off the bar.
The other chain factor that affects finish is chisel versus semi-chisel. Because chisel uses a point it will scratchier finish whereas semi-chisel has a rounded cutter corner which leaves dimples rather than scratches. Once again, in practice this means a few extra passes thru a thicknesser but if you are milling for wide natural edge slabs using the existing thickness then this means a lot more sanding to get out that one last pointed scratch. There are other reasons for and against using chisel and semi-chisel, the main one for me being that chisel will go dull quicker, especially in harder dirtier wood.
All you can really do is try different chains for yourself and see what works for you.
Originally Posted by WV Wildman
Holding and moving the mill/saw
Smoother cuts can be obtained by finding a sweet spot in the RPM range that allows the mill to move forward at a steady rate, and using a stance that permits a constant pressure on the mill. Also avoid seesawing the log in the cut. Cycling between max rpm and almost bogging the saw will create a rougher cut than holding the saw at a steady rpm
This is why I like to apply the primary and constant pressure on the saw wrap handle with my hip/thigh/knee. When I need to take a step forward I apply pressure with one arm, ease off with my leg and step forward and reapply pressure with my leg. This means I mainly using my arms to work the remote throttle and to guide the mill. Sometimes I just lock the throttle and this leaves both my arms free momentarily free to add wedges and scratch myself. If the logs is on a slope this of course also helps the mill keep cutting of it's own accord. I found this method of cutting really reduces the strain on my shoulders (I suffer from bursitis, an inflammation of the lubrication sack between the arm and shoulder) at the end of the day. This of course is not the only way to do this - as long as the pressure is always smooth it can vary considerably.
When I first started, I used to often seesaw the mill down the log. This creates a much rougher finish because the mill twists in the cut. I still do this sometimes towards the end of a long hard wide slab - the reason for this is by then the chain is getting blunt and the seesawing cuts less wood at any one time so it takes a little load off the powerhead (I can see this effect on the temp gauge). Some people think this method is faster but it really isn't much faster.
If you do have to stop cutting completely during the cut, then when restarting, resist the urge to crank the saw WOT and drive it back into the cut as this will create a rough strip on the two surfaces. Just ease the powerhead up to WOT as the chain enters the wood.
Bar and chain
Some people seem to get sufficiently smooth cuts using regular crosscutting chain while others swear by lower top plate cutter angles. IMHO a good milling cutting style (as describe above) can generate smooth cuts with regular chain but it only takes a momentary loss of attention to leave a slab wide chain gouge on your slab using regular chain. In most cases this means a few extra passes thru a thicknesser but if you are milling wide natural edge slabs then this means a lot more sanding. I use a 5-10º top plate (milling chain) and combined with a good milling style works for me and leaves a little room for a lack of attention from time to time.
Regular chain will make a marginally wider cut so a small amount of power needs to be diverted to do this, OTOH, the top plate is performing more of a slicing rather then a chopping action so it is swings and roundabouts on this factor. One thing I do not like using regular chain for is on longer bars as the extra sideways chop/vibe can easily pull the chain off the bar.
The other chain factor that affects finish is chisel versus semi-chisel. Because chisel uses a point it will scratchier finish whereas semi-chisel has a rounded cutter corner which leaves dimples rather than scratches. Once again, in practice this means a few extra passes thru a thicknesser but if you are milling for wide natural edge slabs using the existing thickness then this means a lot more sanding to get out that one last pointed scratch. There are other reasons for and against using chisel and semi-chisel, the main one for me being that chisel will go dull quicker, especially in harder dirtier wood.
All you can really do is try different chains for yourself and see what works for you.
diesel&coffee
ArboristSite Guru
bob
Where can I find a few good pictures of the mounting unit that you bolt your saw to?? and the unit on the other end?? where these custom mounts made after first starting with a box CSM?? are they a modified copy of a box csm mount?? I really would rather make a solid custom mounting setup instead of buying a box csm... all the rail stuff should be somewhat easy! I hope lol?
would be nice to see some pictures of the custom parts off the saw and on the saw in such a way one could study them when making something... Geee - I ask a lot don't I...
Must say you open the door for one wanting a nice unit from the start.. I may make mine with a 44" gb double end bar.. as per your comments on setups - I would rather have the extra 1 - 2 ft of bar instead of making say a small 30" unit and find a twisted log the next week that would work in a small csm..
insert: the upgrade thread has a good picture of the bar end mount.. I can't sem to find a good one of the chainsaw mount side..
but I guess u would have to flip it e gig over to the how the saw is mounted/etc..
Where can I find a few good pictures of the mounting unit that you bolt your saw to?? and the unit on the other end?? where these custom mounts made after first starting with a box CSM?? are they a modified copy of a box csm mount?? I really would rather make a solid custom mounting setup instead of buying a box csm... all the rail stuff should be somewhat easy! I hope lol?
would be nice to see some pictures of the custom parts off the saw and on the saw in such a way one could study them when making something... Geee - I ask a lot don't I...
Must say you open the door for one wanting a nice unit from the start.. I may make mine with a 44" gb double end bar.. as per your comments on setups - I would rather have the extra 1 - 2 ft of bar instead of making say a small 30" unit and find a twisted log the next week that would work in a small csm..
insert: the upgrade thread has a good picture of the bar end mount.. I can't sem to find a good one of the chainsaw mount side..
but I guess u would have to flip it e gig over to the how the saw is mounted/etc..
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The Almost complete WIP for the BIL mill starts on post #18 of this thread.
No, the whole mill was designed starting from the mounts.
No - the BIL mill design is a conglomerate of a whole bunch of ideas collected from this and other sites, plus some original ideas like the nose bar clamp and the cam operated vertical adjustment locks.
Usually my ideas and designs don't quite live up to my imagination but the BIL mill is one of the few tools/jigs that has worked as well, perhaps better, than I envisaged.
see above
There is some serious merit in making and then using a basic alaskan mill first - then you can see and experience all the problems for your self. I would really recommend this, otherwise you will be making it somewhat blind. I still use the first mill I made on small logs. I've continually modified it eg removed the inboard bar clamp altogether and switched to a "bolt on bar", and added some better wheels, and given it's original design limitations it continues to work very well especially with the 441. I would recommend direct bolt on bar over bar clamps even if you only have one CS.
The BIL mill is by no means perfect and I am mentally already working on my fourth mill. I'm going away for 5 weeks so I can't really start anything till I get back.
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SPM in King
ArboristSite Lurker
Pulley and crank
I saw this on another site and rigged it up for my mill last winter. It works beautifully. The crank allows for very even pressure and saves my arms. I am a very junior welder, but it was very simple to construct.
I saw this on another site and rigged it up for my mill last winter. It works beautifully. The crank allows for very even pressure and saves my arms. I am a very junior welder, but it was very simple to construct.
jnl502
ArboristSite Operative
That's pretty slick. Bet it helps save your arms from all the pushig. I have thought of simething simular but useing a battery drill to do the work.
jnl
SPM in King
ArboristSite Lurker
Yes, it's a saving grace. I had misgivings about the crank pulling the rig out of alignment and the amount of effort required to crank it. It is so easy crank and is remarkably stable. The key to stability is keeping the crank low. If you build one, I suggest you use the hand crank. It gives a good "feel" for the pressure needed to maintain RPM.
I have since added and extension on the pulley end of things to allow me pull right through the end of the log. It moves the pulley about 6 inches beyond the end of the log.
I have since added and extension on the pulley end of things to allow me pull right through the end of the log. It moves the pulley about 6 inches beyond the end of the log.
mtngun
Addicted to ArboristSite
That looks similar to BillSteuwe's crank -- except Bill doesn't mill in the snow. 
My concern with cranks is it looks like you have to constantly hold the mill away from the side of the log, presumably to prevent the saw from bogging down against the side of the log. That was also my experience with cranks and that just felt like wasted energy so this is when I looked for other solutions like wheels and a remote throttle. Wheels are not perfect but they will minimize the need to constantly hold the mill away from the side of the log.
. . . . if a CSM operator's arms hurt there's something not right with their set up. ;-)
If the chain cutter geometry is set right and the cutters are sharp, with wheels and a slight slope on the log, a CSM should self feed so there should be no need to push much or at all.
Even if there is minimal pushing, most arm soreness from CSM is due to the operators arms being spread too far apart while holding onto the mill/saw (this is why your arms are not as sore). A well located remote locking throttle eliminates this problem by getting the operators arms more directly in front them and allows them to stand up close and personal to the mill to be able to be able to apply forward pressure on the wrap handle with their leg/knee/thigh. This then in turn means the operator's arms can be free to do things like unbog the saw if needed and add wedges etc and it means it is possible not to stop milling once started which makes for smoother cuts.
. . . . if a CSM operator's arms hurt there's something not right with their set up. ;-)
If the chain cutter geometry is set right and the cutters are sharp, with wheels and a slight slope on the log, a CSM should self feed so there should be no need to push much or at all.
Even if there is minimal pushing, most arm soreness from CSM is due to the operators arms being spread too far apart while holding onto the mill/saw (this is why your arms are not as sore). A well located remote locking throttle eliminates this problem by getting the operators arms more directly in front them and allows them to stand up close and personal to the mill to be able to be able to apply forward pressure on the wrap handle with their leg/knee/thigh. This then in turn means the operator's arms can be free to do things like unbog the saw if needed and add wedges etc and it means it is possible not to stop milling once started which makes for smoother cuts.
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SPM in King
ArboristSite Lurker
Not sure why I am holding the mill away from the log in those shots, but there is generally no need to do so. If you want to tire your arms, try doing it for a whole cut!! Your points on the slope and wheels are good ones. I had the slope experience by chance and agree that it reduces the amount of effort considerably. I will look into the wheels and see how to fit some on. Is there a thread with any details, that you can recommend?
So far, the crank has been flawless. Easy to set up, easy to use. It gives a measure of control to the pressure applied to the mill during the cut. I'm using it with an 880 and a 60" bar.
So far, the crank has been flawless. Easy to set up, easy to use. It gives a measure of control to the pressure applied to the mill during the cut. I'm using it with an 880 and a 60" bar.
Some tips for building/improving a standard alaskan chainsaw mill.
1) Avoid making the mill that will only hold one length of bar. Make sure you can adjust the outboard end (A) of the mill to accommodate different sized bars. The day after you finish making it you'll find, want or need a different size bar.
2) Locate any full length handle (B) at least 6" higher that the top of the mill rails. This makes it easier to file the chain on the mill
3) The handle at C is too low and too far to the right spreading the operators arms too wide - move it to D1
4) Consider adding another handle to D. If you use a cable tie to keep the saw at WOT you can put your left hand at D and your right hand at D2 and stand upright, or close to upright, when using to the mill. If you need to apply more pressure to the mill you can then do so using your leg/knee on the wrap handle.
5) Consider ditching the bottom parts of the clamps (E) and drilling and drilling and tapping the top part of the clamp and drilling a hole in your bar, and directly bolting the bar to the mill. This allow you to change the chain without removing the saw from the mill
6) Add a slippery plastic (UHMWPE) to the underside of the mill rails
7) Add wheels to the inboard side of the bar clamp, If the wheels are not too big you can even use the existing holes in the top half of the bar clamp.
8) Add an auxilliary oiler, even for short bar lengths it protects the bar and chain from excess wear.
9) use spring washers and/or loctite on bolts that are not going to be undone on a regular basis.
10) Add another rail cross piece like F at F1 for small logs, and space the two cross pieces appropriately for wider logs.
11) Add a winch - if I used one I would add in such a way that I would not have to bend over to use it - maybe add it opposite D.
Some other things worth considering are
- adding a remote Aux oiler flow control
- threaded rod for depth of cut adjustment
- cam locking rather than spanner/bolt locking nuts.
- add legs to the mill so that you can put the mill on the ground without putting the saw in the dirt - this requires a different mill design
- there are very strong mill designs that bolt the mill to the bar bolts of the saw - this requires a rethink of the inboard end of the mill
To the saw consider
- redirecting the exhaust away from the operator/log
- adding a remote throttle
- adding a tachometer and temperature measurement sensor
Other things
- beer can holder
1) Avoid making the mill that will only hold one length of bar. Make sure you can adjust the outboard end (A) of the mill to accommodate different sized bars. The day after you finish making it you'll find, want or need a different size bar.
2) Locate any full length handle (B) at least 6" higher that the top of the mill rails. This makes it easier to file the chain on the mill
3) The handle at C is too low and too far to the right spreading the operators arms too wide - move it to D1
4) Consider adding another handle to D. If you use a cable tie to keep the saw at WOT you can put your left hand at D and your right hand at D2 and stand upright, or close to upright, when using to the mill. If you need to apply more pressure to the mill you can then do so using your leg/knee on the wrap handle.
5) Consider ditching the bottom parts of the clamps (E) and drilling and drilling and tapping the top part of the clamp and drilling a hole in your bar, and directly bolting the bar to the mill. This allow you to change the chain without removing the saw from the mill
6) Add a slippery plastic (UHMWPE) to the underside of the mill rails
7) Add wheels to the inboard side of the bar clamp, If the wheels are not too big you can even use the existing holes in the top half of the bar clamp.
8) Add an auxilliary oiler, even for short bar lengths it protects the bar and chain from excess wear.
9) use spring washers and/or loctite on bolts that are not going to be undone on a regular basis.
10) Add another rail cross piece like F at F1 for small logs, and space the two cross pieces appropriately for wider logs.
11) Add a winch - if I used one I would add in such a way that I would not have to bend over to use it - maybe add it opposite D.
Some other things worth considering are
- adding a remote Aux oiler flow control
- threaded rod for depth of cut adjustment
- cam locking rather than spanner/bolt locking nuts.
- add legs to the mill so that you can put the mill on the ground without putting the saw in the dirt - this requires a different mill design
- there are very strong mill designs that bolt the mill to the bar bolts of the saw - this requires a rethink of the inboard end of the mill
To the saw consider
- redirecting the exhaust away from the operator/log
- adding a remote throttle
- adding a tachometer and temperature measurement sensor
Other things
- beer can holder
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