Cabling and Bracing

electrictrimmer · Jan 29, 2010

In my area cabling and bracing in non-existant. Nobody does this and I want to start installing cables and braces. I have read plenty of materials on this subject, but is there anything else I should know. If you could, please give me some install tips, where to purchase the equipment to install, specs and how to sell this service. I am just getting started on my own and I dont know anything about sales. Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

treeseer · Jan 30, 2010

Know the BMP's through and through first.

Find a high-profile tree that needs it, then show the work to your community.

BC WetCoast · Jan 30, 2010

My advice would be to start slow, learn how to splice rather than using easy eyes, it'll keep your overhead down and there are lots of tricks you need to know to get easy eyes to work properly and look good.

If you're using J lags, then you can get by with just a cordless drill and not a gas powered one. You will need a gas drill if you're doing through bolts and rods.

Practice your splicing on the ground, so you will be fast when you get in the tree.

treeseer · Jan 31, 2010

BC WetCoast said:
You will need a gas drill if you're doing through bolts and rods. .

But not for through-drilling cable width and using terminal fasteners.

Can't splice EHS cable; why sacrifice strength for tradition?

If you have a question about marketing with the BMP's, ask away.

pdqdl · Jan 31, 2010

Marketing with BMPs? I am ALWAYS interested in learning how to improve my marketing.

By the way: I'm completely on your side with abandoning the lower strength (splicable) strand and going to EHS. It's harder to work with, but so much stronger. It may be practical to save money in the end by using lighter EHS strand than heavier & thicker conventional strand.

To keep costs down, consider wire nuts. Although some at this website disapprove of them, I find that they work pretty well. I don't really do much cabling, so you can take my advice for what you think it's worth.

treevet · Jan 31, 2010

Industry standards have evolved beyond BMP's to ANSI A300 (Part 3)-2006 Tree, Shrub and Other Woody Plant Maintenance-Standard Practices (Supplemental Support Systems)

treeseer · Feb 1, 2010

Actually ANSI came first, and the ISA BMP's follow with a how-to guide.

i think the article was in tci feb 08

treevet · Feb 1, 2010

Ansi is the standard

treevet · Feb 1, 2010

treeseer said:
But not for through-drilling cable width and using terminal fasteners.

.

NOT acknowledged as a viable system by ANSI standards.

jomoco · Feb 1, 2010

I can't believe it, a newbie cabler asks for advice, and within the first few posts gets steered towards using friggin J lags and rigguy wirestops!

What's next for this poor student trying to learn cabling, cobra dynamic rubber band cambium strangling systems recommendations?

jomoco

mndlawn · Feb 1, 2010

treevet said:
NOT acknowledged as a viable system by ANSI standards.

I'm new to cabling too. ANSI does say this about wire stops: "but if you clearly define the objectives, and follow the manufacturer’s recommendations, installing these newer systems can be ANSI compliant."

I'm confused. I have seen a lot of botched up cable jobs. I really just need to take a class.

pdqdl · Feb 1, 2010

mndlawn said:
...

I'm confused. I have seen a lot of botched up cable jobs. I really just need to take a class.

No need for confusion, although a class won't hurt you a bit. There are very experienced arborists on this site that have widely different thoughts on what equipment is suitable. Traditional cable installers like Jomoco tend to think that the newer equipment is not suitable. Other arborists think otherwise.

I think in the final analysis, that you need to pay more attention to HOW the hardware is installed, and choose a good system that you can install properly. Understanding the role of cabling and the dynamics of a proper installation are more important than which piece of metal you have chosen to terminate an end.

Myself, I question the merit of using J-lags, as they rely on healthy wood to hold the threads. If the wood was all healthy in the branches getting "fixed", it probably would not need the cabling system. Others contend that two injuries per attachment (both sides of the limb) increase the probability of introducing decay. I disagree.

treevet · Feb 1, 2010

mndlawn said:
I'm new to cabling too. ANSI does say this about wire stops: "but if you clearly define the objectives, and follow the manufacturer’s recommendations, installing these newer systems can be ANSI compliant."

Where does it say this? It is not even in the vocabulary section for the standard.

treevet · Feb 1, 2010

pdqdl said:
Myself, I question the merit of using J-lags, as they rely on healthy wood to hold the threads. If the wood was all healthy in the branches getting "fixed", it probably would not need the cabling system. Others contend that two injuries per attachment (both sides of the limb) increase the probability of introducing decay. I disagree.

bolts rely on healthy wood to hold the termination.

Lag hooks work just fine in the right circumstances. I have put in well over 2,000 cables in my life and have never had a call for a pulled out lag. Most of my cables have been and will continue to be lags. The problem usually stems from homeowners and scaredy cats that put them in too low.

I guess it is deja vu time for the groundhog's day on cabling now. I'm in.

pdqdl · Feb 1, 2010

Let's hope this one stay's friendlier than the last one.

I'm pretty safe on this topic, since I do not claim any particular expertise. I have seen a few J-lags holding just fine, and I don't think I have ever seen any cable job fail.

Obviously, my skills at failure analysis would be limited.

treevet · Feb 1, 2010

Sometimes I go 1/8 smaller dia hole (than the lag) instead of the 1/16 recommended on what I consider softer woods or more demanding applications. I will step up to bolts if the situation dictates. It is fun to be creative with experience. Success breeds confidence. Had a ton of compliments from the hurricane of 08 here with trees withstanding 80 mph sustained winds and non cabled trees nearby failing. Cabling is a pro service that you can take pride in like any other service.

Best way to learn IMO....apprenticeship.

Ekka · Feb 23, 2010

jomoco said:
cobra dynamic rubber band cambium strangling systems recommendations?

jomoco

Apparently so and from the PDF I have lifted this about static Cobra system and circled in red where no doubt cambium would be restricted from regular growth.

As the tree grows it expands in girth (ever see tree rings?) and that occurs via cell division. When cells divide they'll tend to take the path of least resistance. This is why things like signs, bikes, nails, fence wire and even J-lags get encased by the tree.

What I see here is a tensioned section of static with a loop around the tree, there will be pressure on the cambium for sure. I see a larger wound area, cambium restriction and structural weakness as expansion will not occur directly beneath the loops but above and below.

I certainly would not be recommending such a system and insist on through bolting, J-Lags or Rigguy.... but that doesn't mean you have to use steel wire either, I just don't like the termination loops around the stems.

Wohn · Feb 23, 2010

Ekka,

your are right that there will be some pressure (I guess around 50-100 kg (110-220 lb)) on the bark and the cambium below the loop that may restrict the natural secondary growth of the branch. But that pressure is devided by the contact-surface of the loop thus it is minimized. A regular inspection also helps to avoid ingrowth.

Sure alternative you can drill a stem and use j-lags and it doesn't matter if you install a steel insteed of a dyneema - except of the weight. But as you know the compartimenzation of some trees isn't really good so for those trees a loop is possibly the lesser evil.

You have to evaluate from case to case what solution is best for the tree.

Greetings

jomoco · Feb 23, 2010

Wohn said:
your are right that there will be some pressure (I guess around 50-100 kg (110-220 lb)) on the bark and the cambium below the loop that may restrict the natural secondary growth of the branch. But that pressure is devided by the contact-surface of the loop thus it is minimized.

220 lbs huh?

Somehow I doubt you realise how silly that sounds to a veteran cabler. One who has installed cabling systems over 25 years old, under thousands of lbs of linear tension, with galvinized steel hardware rated in excess of 20K lbs of linear tension?

If you're selling this snake oil my friend, I hope for your sake you have plenty of product liability insurance.

jomoco

Wohn · Feb 23, 2010

Jomoco,
excuse me but possibly you got me wrong. With 220 lbs I meant the constant load that is on the cable not the breakload (tensile strength) of the cable or system. (cobra ultrastatic has a system breakload of around 14k lbs)

To I install a static cabling I use a pulley to pull the branches together carefully and then I install the system. After loosing the pulley the constant load (constant pressure) isn't much higher than a few hundred lbs.

Sure during storms there are higher peak loads but they won't effect secondary growth after the storm anymore, right?

Our product liability insurance is plenty - thanks - but we never had to fall back on it. There wasn't one system or material failure since 1993.

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