120 year old 50-60’ black walnut propper trimming

[robert lauder]

Hello
Long time listener first time caller

I am hoping for opinions on how this tree should have been handled correctly
If it is still viable and safe with the extent of the trim/logging
What would be a “made whole” action anyone could suggest.

Details:
It’s a 120 year old black walnut planted the same year as our century home.
It is a non boundary tree
We granted the neighbours request to have the 1/2 dozen 6”-12” dead branches trimmed.
They booked a service which came while we were at work and removed massively more than communicated.
From the photos I believe it shows roughly 2/3rds of the tree removed. None of the remaining branches were touched.
We are located in Ontario canada.
It is early September and the tree was still covered in leaves and walnuts
The foliage branches and trunks removed were healthy and not diseased, dead or broken.

Will the remaining leaves be sufficient to keep the tree alive
Will the existing branches and their height be able to withstand ice and snow storms without the support and protection of the removed mass.
Will the trunk of the tree be able to adapt to the entirely new “balance” of the canopy.
Has enough been left to prevent the tree going into shock
What, if any, corrective actions should be taken
How would an arborist or trimmer “make whole” in the situation of this drastic an error.

 

[dandan111]

I can see why they wanted that limb off but they shouldn’t have hacked
the rest of it. They went to far in my opinion, sorry.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

As a certified arborist, here's what I'll say. First, let's forget about that utility line running through tree. We know that needs to be kept clear ... But, that tree company went WAY too far. That's what I jokingly refer to as a "utility prune". They didn't just mess up the aesthetics, but the balance and wind loading as well. Many tree contractors just don't know that removing too much canopy doesn't always reduce wind susceptibility, but can sometimes increase it. I won't get into all the gory details, but look up something called "lions tailing" as an example - which a lot of companies do mistakenly thinking it reduces wind effects - then apply the wind loading effect from that to your tree and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Removing wood may seemingly make the wind flow better through the tree, and in many cases it does, but sometimes you lose the weight dampening effect from those branches, which means your trunk may actually have larger and more frequent movements in wind now. Now I'm not saying they lions tailed that tree, but what they did still left you with some of the same issues.

The biggest concern is the removal of that large branch over the driveway all at once. That's a LOT of foliage removed from that tree. It's not just about the size of the final cut (though that's an issue too), it's also about the fact that the limb was a large portion of the canopy. And that's an old tree. Most arborists will tell you that on a tree that age, no more than 5-10% of canopy should be removed at once, some may say even less. Maybe the tree will recover, maybe it won't, but you may not know for several years. The proper way to have removed that limb would have been to reduce it back over a period of time, giving the tree some recovery time between prunes. A lot of tree guys don't know this though. I have seen numerous cases where a company took off a large healthy limb, and the tree went into a slow decline for several years after.

The issue you face is that tree decline from things like this takes so long that it's hard to determine years from now who was ultimately responsible for the decline or failure. And the real problem you have is that you gave your neighbor permission to do it. I hope you have it documented that you said 6-12" specifically, because that branch is larger than 12" where they made the cut. Your best bet right now is to find a GOOD certified arborist and pay them to come out and give an opinion. When I say GOOD, I mean a real consulting arborist who spends a lot of time doing PHC and saving trees, not just taking them down. These are the arborists who are intimately familiar with tree decline and the root causes. If this arborist has experience with tree litigation, that's a plus. You may need them if that tree blows over in a storm next year, or develops roots problems on that side from the lack of sugars coming down, or develops a disease due to the stress. The easy button may be to look for board certified master arborist. But, use your best judgement though, and make sure they're not just there to generate a removal job for their company. And, they're likely going to charge you for the consultation.

You may get some advice that says don't worry about it. Just call that GOOD arborist and get their opinion. Good luck to you.

 

[buzz sawyer]

As a certified arborist, here's what I'll say. First, let's forget about that utility line running through tree. We know that needs to be kept clear ... But, that tree company went WAY too far. That's what I jokingly refer to as a "utility prune". They didn't just mess up the aesthetics, but the balance and wind loading as well. Many tree contractors just don't know that removing too much canopy doesn't always reduce wind susceptibility, but can sometimes increase it. I won't get into all the gory details, but look up something called "lions tailing" as an example - which a lot of companies do mistakenly thinking it reduces wind effects - then apply the wind loading effect from that to your tree and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Removing wood may seemingly make the wind flow better through the tree, and in many cases it does, but sometimes you lose the weight dampening effect from those branches, which means your trunk may actually have larger and more frequent movements in wind now. Now I'm not saying they lions tailed that tree, but what they did still left you with some of the same issues.

The biggest concern is the removal of that large branch over the driveway all at once. That's a LOT of foliage removed from that tree. It's not just about the size of the final cut (though that's an issue too), it's also about the fact that the limb was a large portion of the canopy. And that's an old tree. Most arborists will tell you that on a tree that age, no more than 5-10% of canopy should be removed at once, some may say even less. Maybe the tree will recover, maybe it won't, but you may not know for several years. The proper way to have removed that limb would have been to reduce it back over a period of time, giving the tree some recovery time between prunes. A lot of tree guys don't know this though. I have seen numerous cases where a company took off a large healthy limb, and the tree went into a slow decline for several years after.

The issue you face is that tree decline from things like this takes so long that it's hard to determine years from now who was ultimately responsible for the decline or failure. And the real problem you have is that you gave your neighbor permission to do it. I hope you have it documented that you said 6-12" specifically, because that branch is larger than 12" where they made the cut. Your best bet right now is to find a GOOD certified arborist and pay them to come out and give an opinion. When I say GOOD, I mean a real consulting arborist who spends a lot of time doing PHC and saving trees, not just taking them down. These are the arborists who are intimately familiar with tree decline and the root causes. If this arborist has experience with tree litigation, that's a plus. You may need them if that tree blows over in a storm next year, or develops roots problems on that side from the lack of sugars coming down, or develops a disease due to the stress. The easy button may be to look for board certified master arborist. But, use your best judgement though, and make sure they're not just there to generate a removal job for their company. And, they're likely going to charge you for the consultation.

You may get some advice that says don't worry about it. Just call that GOOD arborist and get their opinion. Good luck to you.

Asking for my own enlightenment - could that large limb have been cabled to prevent it breaking off and falling - assuming that was the neighbors main concern?

 

[ATH]

few thoughts of my own and replies to above:
A) That line looks like a service drop. Didn't need clearance for the utility line. Hasn't been done for how many decades now?
B) Sure the limb could have been cabled...but why? It doesn't look like it was a poor attachment. Very low probability of failure. I'd be almost just as concerned about the neighbor's house falling on my house. Does that mean it should go? Just because somebody is "concerned" doesn't justify action - especially not excessive action.
C) I'd say lionstailing is a pretty good description of what happened there and you described the concerns will that well @Bullseye T&L
D) There are 3 structure/health concerns I have:
1. the lionstailing and how the wind will play with that tree. More likely to fail now than before they hacked it.
2. short term (next 3-5 years) will the tree recover from the loss of that much productivity. Think of each leaf as a food factory. They just took away ...what, 50-75% of the factories? The good thing is if it just happened, end of season damage like that is far less impactful than right after it just put the leaves on in the spring.
3. long term, that's a giant wound on the trunk that will never compartmentalize. It WILL start to rot. How quickly it rots is TBD. Keep an eye on that and have a Tree Risk Qualified Arborist inspect it if you start to notice extensive decay.

Having said all of that, I wouldn't do anything else to the tree now. There may some branches we'd like to take off for balance, but that comes back to the % of factories already lost. Taking away more doesn't solve the problem. They company didn't know what they were doing/don't know how to manage a tree well. Probably don't know how to communicate with clients well either.. Certainly should have communicated with you before taking that much of the tree. Sorry you have to deal with that.

Not sure what "make whole" looks like here. (with the qualifier, I'm not a lawyer, and certainly not familiar with Canadian laws...) If they did it with no permission at all, I might suggest having an appraisal done on the tree based on before pictures and current condition. The value will have decreased. But that may be a tough play in litigation as the question of whether you "realize" a loss comes into play. With permission, not written, now it you also have a matter of interpretation. I wouldn't be mad at the neighbor. That's all on the tree company. Even if the neighbor specifically asked them "cut that branch, and that branch, and that branch..." a knowledgeable and ethical arborist would have a discussion about the health, structure and viability of the tree.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

^^^
Some very good points. And yes, the tree contractor should bear the brunt on this. Hope this all works out for the OP
It doesn't appear he "asked" for this, so to speak.

 

[RogerLemelin]

I can identify with how emotional this loss is for you. I used to have two huge, beautiful, amazing black walnut trees. They were a centerpiece of my property. The yellow leaves in the fall are stunning, and they provide(d) excellent shade. (Notice I'm not mentioning how much care these trees take.) I now have one and a half walnut trees. I explicitly told the utility company not to touch these trees. I came home one day to find a third of one of the trees gone. The limbs were cut severely and the tree cutter left all the branches on the ground for me to clean up. I was shocked and devastated. That happened about 7 years ago. The tree has not recovered its fullness and I don't believe it ever will. This butchering of trees is a financial loss for the homeowner. Also, we have tent caterpillar infestations every few years, and I think a tree that has been severely pruned has a hard time recovering from the caterpillars because it has fewer leaves that can be sacrificed.

 

[dandan111]

Unfortunately pretty much any urban neighborhood suffers from
walnut trees I love them but baseball size nuts and a acid like soil
aren’t ok around here.Sorry for this though.