The pay here varies greatly. I was offered a welding position at a city school for decent money. The guy was leaving there to go to another city school which paid even better. It also had the community college night courses ran through that school so that was another huge jump in pay
16 yo kid inside a mill
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I am a forestry oriented person. I do know there are teacher certification requirements in my state, and you can look this up just as easily as I can. I've got better things to do cuz I'm not a teacher and am not interested in teaching someone like you who is really not interested in any facts. But at least your vocabulary has expanded from asking Yes or No like the Faux pundits do.
This explains a bit of the labor shortage. Or is it a failure to make crap work meaningful and have wages increase?
This is a good example of parents not wanting their children to follow in their (the parent's) footsteps.
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/28/1189...or-shortage-h2a-visa-dan-newhouse-immigration
This is a good example of parents not wanting their children to follow in their (the parent's) footsteps.
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/28/1189...or-shortage-h2a-visa-dan-newhouse-immigration
There is a reason I don't like this forum. It's been several days. Have any facts come forth. Was the 16 year old working for the sawmill? Last I heard someone said he came to work with his father? UPS would not let me bring my kids to work with me. I would just like to know the details/facts, so I know which side to get on. Was he in the employ of the company? Was he with his father?
StihlPotlicker
ArboristSite Operative
i know a guy that sued his dad that he worked for, when he wrecked the log truck. put his dad out of the logging business. nothing wrong with log truck. he is also the same guy who claims disability and can't work because of it, yet almost killed himself yrs later by cutting up old pipe in the woods from old oil fields and was selling it for scrap. He works harder to stay out of work.
I guess working hard to not have to work hard is his profession.i know a guy that sued his dad that he worked for, when he wrecked the log truck. put his dad out of the logging business. nothing wrong with log truck. he is also the same guy who claims disability and can't work because of it, yet almost killed himself yrs later by cutting up old pipe in the woods from old oil fields and was selling it for scrap. He works harder to stay out of work.
There has been altogether too much bickering going on, hasn't there? Sometimes when people have a topic they are passionate about, they get a little carried away.
Now if you go back and read a bit closer, there have been links posted that do explain what happened. Yes, he was employed, and I believe it was confirmed that his father was also an employee.
Really particular details about safety controls that may have been ignored or bypassed remain unknown.
Thanks, I just didn’t want to go through all the stuff between the important stuff.
Certain folks may have forgotten that this is the arboricultural injuries forum, not the political forum, where we have a bit lower expectations as to manners and civil conversation.
retiredfarmer
ArboristSite Member
Well the primary industries are the most dangerous number one is commercial fishing forestry is number 2 and number three is agriculture.
Update:
“A Labor Department investigation launched in response to Michael’s death discovered that three Florence Hardwood employees, ages 15 to 16, also were injured while working there between November 2021 and March 2023. One of them was injured on two occasions.
The Department deemed the company’s products “hot goods” because they were manufactured with oppressive child labour and prohibited them from shipping the wood. The government lifted that restriction, after the owners agreed not to employ anyone under age 16 and paid $190,000 (£157,000) in civil penalties.
Michael was found to be among nine teens, ages 14 to 17, who illegally operated machinery at the company. They also employed seven teens, ages 14 and 15, outside legally permitted hours. Michael was one of those who worked outside legally permitted hours before he turned 16 – when the regulations change – and had also previously illegally operated dangerous equipment.”
Well well well….
“A Labor Department investigation launched in response to Michael’s death discovered that three Florence Hardwood employees, ages 15 to 16, also were injured while working there between November 2021 and March 2023. One of them was injured on two occasions.
The Department deemed the company’s products “hot goods” because they were manufactured with oppressive child labour and prohibited them from shipping the wood. The government lifted that restriction, after the owners agreed not to employ anyone under age 16 and paid $190,000 (£157,000) in civil penalties.
Michael was found to be among nine teens, ages 14 to 17, who illegally operated machinery at the company. They also employed seven teens, ages 14 and 15, outside legally permitted hours. Michael was one of those who worked outside legally permitted hours before he turned 16 – when the regulations change – and had also previously illegally operated dangerous equipment.”
Well well well….
Makes sense. I worked in a fertilizer plant starting at age 15 (I think?) Definitely before driving age, I either walked or rode my bike there every day rain snow or shine. Lots of heavy equipment and big machinery with moving parts. There were more jobs I couldn't do there than jobs that I could.
This would have been mid 1990's. I can't imagine laws like this ever laxing away from erring on the side of safety.
This would have been mid 1990's. I can't imagine laws like this ever laxing away from erring on the side of safety.
Hermio
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In most cases I agree. I see it every day with my students- they may have skills, but often lack maturity. At the same time, some of them are just as mature and capable of making logical and safe choices as any adult I have ever worked with- the percentage of those students keeps going down every year though.
Mostly agree. There are always exceptions. I grew up on a large dairy farm, by the time I hit the fertilizer plant I could operate a pay loader as well or better than some of the adults working there. To be fair This was a fairly low paying job and did not attract great long term talent.
One thing I will say now that I've raised 2 boys into manhood. If you teach them proper- and are quick to correct (and explain) their errors - they learn like a sponge. When my youngest went off to the Marines he graduated at the top of his platoon. To be honest I'd rather have him in my corner than most guys I work with, and I'm in a skilled trade. The youngsters generally don't have the baggage and the bad habits yet.
James Sawyer
ArboristSite Operative
The some of the younger people going into the work force just don't have the work ethic the older work force does. Plus, they want to make the same pay as someone that has 20years experience. I work for a top 100 company and about 70% of the people I hire just don't work out here! They are attached to their phones. They finish one task and sit until asked to do another task... who has time to baby sit. Most may have the education but no common sense or very poor mechanical skill. They just don't apply themselves to learn their area ...they are so short sighted most don't look beyond the present job for opportunities to build into more advance positions. The education is what get you in the door, the real education happens over a lifetime.
A man only owns his name, anything else he owns can be taken away or lost (relationship property etc.) Take care of your name because that is all you'll will ever be! Give your best every day, who can ask or expect more than that! Tomorrow if you apply yourself, you'll be that much better and you'll have more to offer your employer. There are no stupid questions, never be afraid to ask questions... the only loser is you... if you don't ask! Don't be afraid to ask a second time because perspective differ sometime on complex issues it important you understand... that part of taking care of your name. Be the 1st on the job, the last to leave... do a little more than others. You'll be the last to leave when business is tight. Always be up front and honest. Not speak up on things you don't know anything about! If you don't know its ok to say so... but if ask, do your best. Every day is a learning experience I don't care how old you are! You are going to make mistake it ok... never hurts to ask for help but think thru what you're doing before you ask so you know what to ask... that the part where you try your best!
I was raised by a man that had an 8th grade education and he was on his own since he was 12 years old. If he didn't work, he had no place to sleep or anything to eat. He lived in log camps and barely could drag the saw from tree to tree. My dad is a hard man of few words, but he was always fair. He raised us and treated us like adults because he did it ... and so could we! He expected a lot from us kids and he didn't take a lot of time to explain things. he'd showed us once or twice and expected us to think and work thru the problems. He had no childhood perspective. We rode on logging equipment at age of 4 & 5 years old, I cut my teeth on D6 cat. I was falling timber at age 10. In the early 70's timber was big and we were paid by scale, and I worked a lot of weekend side jobs with him. We were making $220 a day between the two of us falling timber. I think min wage was $1.35. School for us kids was a priority, and we better respect our elders. If he heard different well let me tell you he did believe in time out, it was immediately. When I was older in the summer, I live in some of his log camps and some of those guys were a bit rough. We ate a deer a week in those camps. The only difference between breakfast, lunch and dinner where egg and maybe some fruit. I won't trade a day for those experiences!
The words above I learned from him, I was always reminded there are too many good people out of work... what make me think I'm so special. You want to feed and take care of your family... you're going to have work to do it, that's why they call it work! I think very few parents teach these things at home anymore. Fact here in Oregon the state board past the requirement for next 5 years kids don't have know how to read to graduate. If you have no expectations, you get no expectations from what I see. If someone wants to work, they will find a way! When was the last time you saw a kid asking to mow lawns, weeding flower beds, selling pinecone, peeling chittum bark, picked bear grass or ferns, picking berries? How many school age kids these days can cook a meal for the family, do laundry or do housework or even do the dishes.
My wife and I raise four daughters we had expectation. One of my daughter ran/ helped clear land on ground with a D8 cat, she got a full ride Doctorate scholarship from University of Maryland. Later she became the director of women study at University of Weber in Ogden UT. help UT legislator pass their 1st title 9 bill. She set up OHSU 1st title 9 program. As a grat student she applied for and got grants for the OSU... that unheard of.. it usually professor and staff. One daughter handled all the trade at Intel during their fab construction. She decide to go back to school for a criminal Justus degree. Another daughter was supervisor for distribution center for US postal service in Portland Oregon. The youngest daughter does day surgery now, worked ER and the surgery floor prior. She graduated with honors in 2 year accelerated Bachor degree in a nursing program. All my kids have wilderness training, drive equipment and can build things... some even have broken their own horses. All of them have auto repair skills. The youngest fixed all the other nursing schools students' cars... half shafts, starters, alternators, electrical problem, O2 and crank sensors, radiator... even replaced a windshield for one gal. The youngest is my best mechanic. It's important kids learn to count on themself because they aren't always going have someone else around to do it for them. They need the confidence not to be afraid to try give it their best. There is no investment in child with no expectations of some kind is my opinion, you have to let them fail... just be there for them so you can talk about it and encourage them to try again. Life skills build confidence. This is a one long post and I probably said too much. Child labor laws have their place, but work ethic still needs to be taught in the home in my opinion. I'm not saying my childhood was right only that there are other ways to teach ethics. You can't do that if your kids are always in the house playing video games or on their phones... addictive habits are hard to break.
A man only owns his name, anything else he owns can be taken away or lost (relationship property etc.) Take care of your name because that is all you'll will ever be! Give your best every day, who can ask or expect more than that! Tomorrow if you apply yourself, you'll be that much better and you'll have more to offer your employer. There are no stupid questions, never be afraid to ask questions... the only loser is you... if you don't ask! Don't be afraid to ask a second time because perspective differ sometime on complex issues it important you understand... that part of taking care of your name. Be the 1st on the job, the last to leave... do a little more than others. You'll be the last to leave when business is tight. Always be up front and honest. Not speak up on things you don't know anything about! If you don't know its ok to say so... but if ask, do your best. Every day is a learning experience I don't care how old you are! You are going to make mistake it ok... never hurts to ask for help but think thru what you're doing before you ask so you know what to ask... that the part where you try your best!
I was raised by a man that had an 8th grade education and he was on his own since he was 12 years old. If he didn't work, he had no place to sleep or anything to eat. He lived in log camps and barely could drag the saw from tree to tree. My dad is a hard man of few words, but he was always fair. He raised us and treated us like adults because he did it ... and so could we! He expected a lot from us kids and he didn't take a lot of time to explain things. he'd showed us once or twice and expected us to think and work thru the problems. He had no childhood perspective. We rode on logging equipment at age of 4 & 5 years old, I cut my teeth on D6 cat. I was falling timber at age 10. In the early 70's timber was big and we were paid by scale, and I worked a lot of weekend side jobs with him. We were making $220 a day between the two of us falling timber. I think min wage was $1.35. School for us kids was a priority, and we better respect our elders. If he heard different well let me tell you he did believe in time out, it was immediately. When I was older in the summer, I live in some of his log camps and some of those guys were a bit rough. We ate a deer a week in those camps. The only difference between breakfast, lunch and dinner where egg and maybe some fruit. I won't trade a day for those experiences!
The words above I learned from him, I was always reminded there are too many good people out of work... what make me think I'm so special. You want to feed and take care of your family... you're going to have work to do it, that's why they call it work! I think very few parents teach these things at home anymore. Fact here in Oregon the state board past the requirement for next 5 years kids don't have know how to read to graduate. If you have no expectations, you get no expectations from what I see. If someone wants to work, they will find a way! When was the last time you saw a kid asking to mow lawns, weeding flower beds, selling pinecone, peeling chittum bark, picked bear grass or ferns, picking berries? How many school age kids these days can cook a meal for the family, do laundry or do housework or even do the dishes.
My wife and I raise four daughters we had expectation. One of my daughter ran/ helped clear land on ground with a D8 cat, she got a full ride Doctorate scholarship from University of Maryland. Later she became the director of women study at University of Weber in Ogden UT. help UT legislator pass their 1st title 9 bill. She set up OHSU 1st title 9 program. As a grat student she applied for and got grants for the OSU... that unheard of.. it usually professor and staff. One daughter handled all the trade at Intel during their fab construction. She decide to go back to school for a criminal Justus degree. Another daughter was supervisor for distribution center for US postal service in Portland Oregon. The youngest daughter does day surgery now, worked ER and the surgery floor prior. She graduated with honors in 2 year accelerated Bachor degree in a nursing program. All my kids have wilderness training, drive equipment and can build things... some even have broken their own horses. All of them have auto repair skills. The youngest fixed all the other nursing schools students' cars... half shafts, starters, alternators, electrical problem, O2 and crank sensors, radiator... even replaced a windshield for one gal. The youngest is my best mechanic. It's important kids learn to count on themself because they aren't always going have someone else around to do it for them. They need the confidence not to be afraid to try give it their best. There is no investment in child with no expectations of some kind is my opinion, you have to let them fail... just be there for them so you can talk about it and encourage them to try again. Life skills build confidence. This is a one long post and I probably said too much. Child labor laws have their place, but work ethic still needs to be taught in the home in my opinion. I'm not saying my childhood was right only that there are other ways to teach ethics. You can't do that if your kids are always in the house playing video games or on their phones... addictive habits are hard to break.
Another 1.4 Million dollar fine...
"Like most workplace accidents, the tragedy that took place at a Wisconsin sawmill in June didn't have to happen. In fact, Michael Schuls, a high school student who had turned 16 just weeks before his death, should never have been trying to unjam a stick stacker machine at Florence Hardwoods in the first place.
So concluded the Department of Labor, which on Dec. 19 announced a nearly $1.4 million fine against the mill where Schuls was fatally injured. An investigation by the agency's Occupational Safety and Health Administration found that Florence Hardwoods let several minors, including Schuls, perform maintenance on equipment without training and without following required safety procedures.
"Like most workplace accidents, the tragedy that took place at a Wisconsin sawmill in June didn't have to happen. In fact, Michael Schuls, a high school student who had turned 16 just weeks before his death, should never have been trying to unjam a stick stacker machine at Florence Hardwoods in the first place.
So concluded the Department of Labor, which on Dec. 19 announced a nearly $1.4 million fine against the mill where Schuls was fatally injured. An investigation by the agency's Occupational Safety and Health Administration found that Florence Hardwoods let several minors, including Schuls, perform maintenance on equipment without training and without following required safety procedures.
