16 yo kid inside a mill

[Kodiak Kid]

Its the age where we legally become an adult, or thought to have the faculties to make adult decisions. Its analogous to whether you could be employed in a hazardous factory at 18 vs 16.

But, an 18 year old isn't responsible enough to drink a beer, but yet responsible enough to fire a weapon in the military and kill? 17 year olds can enlist in the military and go to war if they have a permission slip from mommy to enlist.

 

[Kodiak Kid]

Shouldn't there be gaurds and what not on those machines?

We have two 16 year old apprentices at work (engineering) also a couple 14 year old school kids. I see no problem hell many 14 15 16 year olds are far more onto it than green 19 or 20 kids that can't even change their cars oil.

All depends on the kid. Not fair he died at 16 but could just as easily been 20

Could just as easily been 60! It's all about training.

 

[JRM]

Well since hyperbole is the game of the day:

I bet you never thought talking to a wall could be so entertaining

 

[Bill G]

Well since hyperbole is the game of the day:

What the hell are they doing in your class if they aren’t learning skills after you’re done with them, If they have zero skills it isn’t the kids fault.

There’s nothing going on at all in a production shop they couldn’t learn at 18 after they graduate, if you taught them the basics right?

You have avoided the two questions for the third time so I understand you do not want to answer them. That is Ok.

 

[Bill G]

Folks do not instantly become responsible on their 18th birthday. I would love to see folks generate a list of what jobs they feel a 16-17 year old should not be doing

 

[JRM]

But, an 18 year old isn't responsible enough to drink a beer, but yet responsible enough to fire a weapon in the military and kill? 17 year olds can enlist in the military and go to war if they have a permission slip from mommy to enlist.

Even 21 is arguably too young to drink. The human brain is extremely susceptible to addiction at a young age. The more opportunity you are afforded the chance to mature the better your chances of not falling into the rabbit hole of making poor life choices under the influence.

As far as seeing combat at 17 I believe you'd be hard pressed to find someone that's done that in our lifetime. From the first day of boot camp Your looking at 12-18 calendar months of training before deployment. Even my Grandfather who was drafted into WW2 directly out of highschool didn't see the battle field that young.

 

[Bill G]

Even 21 is arguably too young to drink. The human brain is extremely susceptible to addiction at a young age. The more opportunity you are afforded the chance to mature the better your chances of not falling into the rabbit hole of making poor life choices under the influence.

As far as seeing combat at 17 I believe you'd be hard pressed to find someone that's done that in our lifetime. From the first day of boot camp Your looking at 12-18 calendar months of training before deployment. Even my Grandfather who was drafted into WW2 directly out of highschool didn't see the battle field that young.

My uncles did, and they died. My mother's husband did in Vietnam. My buddy from school was killed in Panama by a sniper shortly after leaving school but no that was not combat. I have had students die in the Middle East shortly after enlisting but I cannot give specific time frames. I cannot and will not speak to what it is today though.

 

[JRM]

My uncles did, and they died. My mother's husband did in Vietnam. My buddy from school was killed in Panama by a sniper shortly after leaving school but no that was not combat. I have had students die in the Middle East shortly after enlisting but I cannot give specific time frames. I cannot and will not speak to what it is today though.

And all At 17?

 

[Bill G]

The two uncles definitely did.

 

[scut207]

Why are you avoiding the last 2 questions I asked?

Well since hyperbole is the game of the day:

What the hell are they doing in your class if they aren’t learning skills after you’re done with them, If they have zero skills it isn’t the kids fault.

There’s nothing going on at all in a production shop they couldn’t learn at 18 after they graduate, if you taught them the basics right

You have avoided the two questions for the third time so I understand you do not want to answer them. That is Ok.

no bill, I answered. You just don’t like how I answered,

They should be getting skills in an educational environment.

The other is just a loaded question.

I’ve answered they can find different kinds of employment until 18.

 

[JRM]

The two uncles definitely did.

To be clear, you are saying they would have been 16 when they went through basic training.

 

[HuskyShepherd2016]

nothing wrong with a 16 yo having a side job.

I don't think 16 yo belong in hazardous factories with lots of "red mist" whirling blades of death, or hydraulic pinch point machines with items that weigh 1000s of pounds moving around at smash you dead speed.

Sawmill work might be the most dangerous work in the world, I'm having trouble thinking of something more dangerous, other than homemade submarine pilot.

Same reason we don't have 16yo kids in the military.

No doubt for sure. That’s hard to imagine for most people what you’re describing. Roughnecks, miners and underwater repair crews once upon a time had extraordinarily dangerous jobs, but technology and innovation has really dampened that blow but the threat is still and will always be there.

 

[scut207]

And all At 17?

In WWII, and after, I believe you could join @17 with parental consent, prior to it was 19yo and older... Having been active duty infantry for several of my formative years, I was also an instructor at the jungle-warfare school in panama, and a marksmanship instructor at west point... I ran a grenade range for a bit too.

I again don't see a single thing that couldn't have waited a year or years or wouldn't have been better off if did for 98% of them. 18yo are not immune to stupidity either. However in some cases, Im talking kids whose parents didnt give a rats ass anyway, or it was heading for hard knocks on the streets, it didnt hurt getting them out of that environment. But I believe a vocational works program would be better suited(not running heavy equipment) theres plenty of pure grunt work to be done.

In my little perfect world scenario, we would have the equivalent of publicly funded boarding vocational school for the trades for kids as an alternative to penal punishment(severity obviously weighing into availability) as a diversionary tactic to get kids out of bad environments. They could work on public housing and removal of condemned housing (with safety being the 1st goal, the task the second).

I fully support vocational education. I just don't believe kids belong in a high risk factory.

 

[wildwes]

Oh I have not talked about those. It is tragic that almost every year we lost a student. It was generally suicide or an accident. When I was in school we were a class of 100. We lost one as a sophomore and almost lost two as freshman. In that accident the older sister died.

As a teacher I only had one student that was in my class one day and dead the next. That was due to a semi hitting he and his mother while they were delivering Christmas presents.

We just lost a local student in May to murder when another student broke into the house to rob him and ended up shooting him.

I haven't had a current student pass away while in my class, but the young lady who was in the ATV accident was in my class 2 years ago. The other ag teacher had her this spring, so I saw her every day. Most mornings I would see her in the hallway and speak to her, she was in spanish class, so she would greet me in the mornings in spanish, and I would greet her in russian, She was a truly sweet kid.

No, I’m fine with an educational setting like wood shop in HS.

One could arguably could learn more about wood working with hand tools than machines.

There’s other employment available to mid teens outside of a woodworking mill.

That might depend on where you are located- some areas a mill might be the only viable option for young workers. I have also seen more teenagers than you would believe in today's day and time who work out of necessity and help support their families. It is sad, but it still is the case for some of them.

I would also argue that there are jobs in a mill that aren't really unsafe- I worked some in a mill when I was in high school, as an off bearer pulling slabs off a conveyor and stacking them on a rack, neither the sawyer or my dad would let me do anything more dangerous. It was good experience, fairly safe, and let me see what happened in the mill so when I was older and started helping with other jobs I knew a good bit about running the mill.

 

[scut207]

I haven't had a current student pass away while in my class, but the young lady who was in the ATV accident was in my class 2 years ago. The other ag teacher had her this spring, so I saw her every day. Most mornings I would see her in the hallway and speak to her, she was in spanish class, so she would greet me in the mornings in spanish, and I would greet her in russian, She was a truly sweet kid.





That might depend on where you are located- some areas a mill might be the only viable option for young workers. I have also seen more teenagers than you would believe in today's day and time who work out of necessity and help support their families. It is sad, but it still is the case for some of them.

I would also argue that there are jobs in a mill that aren't really unsafe- I worked some in a mill when I was in high school, as an off bearer pulling slabs off a conveyor and stacking them on a rack, neither the sawyer or my dad would let me do anything more dangerous. It was good experience, fairly safe, and let me see what happened in the mill so when I was older and started helping with other jobs I knew a good bit about running the mill.

yep, there are jobs they can do there. it is illegal in WI for a minor to enter "the Mill" Theres a list of jobs they can be involved in at a mill. Basically areas where risk is mitigated.

 

[JRM]

In WWII, and after, I believe you could join @17 with parental consent, prior to it was 19yo and older...

Sure, but unless I misunderstood the original comment was 17 on the battle field - highly unlikely.
Even if one gets parental consent you must have a high school diploma or GED prior to joining which is likely as much of a limiting factor as is getting parental consent.

And again, there is the training as you know, which eats up 12+ calendar months from one's first day of basic. Which makes the 17 and even 18 on the battle field comment very unlikely in any of our lifetimes.

 

[scut207]

Sure, but unless I misunderstood the original comment was 17 on the battle field - highly unlikely.
Even if one gets parental consent you must have a high school diploma or GED prior to joining which is likely as much of a limiting factor as is getting parental consent.

And again, there is the training as you know, which eats up 12+ calendar months from one's first day of basic. Which makes the 17 and even 18 on the battle field comment very unlikely in any of our lifetimes.

would have to be a tight timeline for sure. Highly depends on MOS and things have greatly changed since the 90s. Ex for Infantry, I started basic on august 2 and joined my first unit sometime Dec after a week of leave. My first job at my real unit after the replacement detachment was in a guard shack while everyone was on Christmas leave. I spent Christmas morning at the shack so the timeline is burned in for me. All said and done ~5 months. So its possible and those two would have to be really unlucky.

Looks like OSUT for infantry is 22 weeks now. I think it was 18 when I was active. No clue what it wass like in the 50s or 60s

 

[wildwes]

I have never been in the military, so I can't add much, other than there was a former student from our school who was killed in Afghanistan when he was 18. He did basic the summer before his senior year right after he turned 17. Went to some more training a few days after he graduated, shipped out shortly after that, and was killed I think by some kind of IED. I'm a little fuzzy on the details as that happened around 10 years ago. That being said, that is much more the exception than the norm.

We do have a reasonable number of students who do delayed entry- sign up with consent at 17, go to basic the summer before their senior year, and then go into full service when they graduate.

 

[Bill G]

To be clear, you are saying they would have been 16 when they went through basic training.

That is not what I am saying at all.

 

[scut207]

I have never been in the military, so I can't add much, other than there was a former student from our school who was killed in Afghanistan when he was 18. He did basic the summer before his senior year right after he turned 17. Went to some more training a few days after he graduated, shipped out shortly after that, and was killed I think by some kind of IED. I'm a little fuzzy on the details as that happened around 10 years ago. That being said, that is much more the exception than the norm.

We do have a reasonable number of students who do delayed entry- sign up with consent at 17, go to basic the summer before their senior year, and then go into full service when they graduate.

yeah they do 10 week basic, then after HS grad they do their AIT which can very in length depending on job at signing. Some are 8 or 10 (maybe 12 is the shortest again I'm not sure) weeks some are up to 52 (nurse) I believe. So something like that can hasten the time an 18 yo reports to actual assigned unit, but its only a 10 week difference, and the class isn't always starting when you want to go... sometimes they dont start for a month or two after youre ready. and they dont pay you for sitting on your butt. So you'd report when the next available class would start.