rumination
ArboristSite Guru
just thought I'd toss in a picture of where I work.
never attached a photo before so hope it isn't too big or anything.
never attached a photo before so hope it isn't too big or anything.
2 climber crew
- Thread starter FBerkel
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Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
That looks like the Lyon Arboretum upslope of Honolulu--is it? My wife and I spent a memorable day there in february.
Gorgeous gargantuan trees!
The place needs a lot of work(no offense, rumination), but jps you'll have to drop you rate about 90% from what you wanted for storm work to have a chance there.
Heck after getting well off Isabel, you can probably afford to go out there and work for minimum wage all winter.
In some European countries it is mandatory for there to be 2 climbers or no climbers. Strictly a safety issue.
Running my own show, I have found that with 2 or 3 climbers on a crew, the marginal return of each climber is exponential. With unit 4, I have seen diminishing marginal returns.
One climber can do Y in a day.
Two climbers can do 3Y in a day.
3 climbers can do 5Y in a day.
4 climbers do 2Y in a day.
I add that markets vary.
I worked on a crew that was 2 - 1 climber/1 groundman crews. We combined on larger jobs. 2 climbers and 2 climbers in training. At times it was 3 climbers and 1 groundie, others it was 1 climber and 3 groundies.
That was a cool company model. 2 crews of 2 in large minivans and then a chip truck with grapple that cleaned up all the brush from the curb. This model requires leaving brush at the curb at times. They could do it there. Here that would not fly. Blowing the drive and raking the lawn seem to be more important than doing good work here.
HSE
over here HSE states that we are required to have multiple climbers, the climbing ticket includes aerial rescue. the spare climber is meant to be kitted up and ready to rescue the climber up the tree should the worst happen, in reality the 'spare' climber isnt kitted up but their climbing kit is nearby and we keep a watch out for each other.....
as for aerial rescue i have spoken to people who would cut their ropes and drop (no matter of the height) and others who would expect the tree to be felled with them in it (hoping for the best), others who wnat to wait for the fire crew......
jamie
over here HSE states that we are required to have multiple climbers, the climbing ticket includes aerial rescue. the spare climber is meant to be kitted up and ready to rescue the climber up the tree should the worst happen, in reality the 'spare' climber isnt kitted up but their climbing kit is nearby and we keep a watch out for each other.....
as for aerial rescue i have spoken to people who would cut their ropes and drop (no matter of the height) and others who would expect the tree to be felled with them in it (hoping for the best), others who wnat to wait for the fire crew......
jamie
FBerkel
ArboristSite Operative
I think it definitely depends on the climbers' attitudes on doing cleanup. When I've found like-minded (masochistic?) guys, who get off on humping logs, dragging brush, it's worked out real well. I've had 4 climbers and no groundman for most of the last two years, and it's worked well. The pricing problem that Mike mentioned can usually be negated by the lower number of man hours, due to efficiency. So, on a large takedown, I'm paying 3 climbers to work the ground and ropes, but we can still be competative with their ability to work efficiently.
Just started with a part time groundie, and there's no doubt it's a nice feeling to come down to a cleaner worksite, though.
Just started with a part time groundie, and there's no doubt it's a nice feeling to come down to a cleaner worksite, though.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Heck, there is the ticket out there (a quick search the cheapest was $620. Not bad!), food and lodging....besides I bought boxes for my truck, some Mar-Bars, a 385, a PDA....all things I've been wanting to get for a while. Now i need some write-offs...
Besides, I'm booked till Christmas anyways. Money made this year won't help next years figures
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yeah, you can't relax for long, eh?Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
Heck, there is the ticket out there (a quick search the cheapest was $620. Not bad!)
Keep looking; I flew out for ~$500.
Besides, I'm booked till Christmas anyways. Money made this year won't help next years figures
rumination
ArboristSite Guru
That's right Guy, it is Lyon Arboretum. I'm glad you liked the place, and not offense taken, it does need a huge amount of work. Unfortunately, we are owned by the university which gives us barely any money so we are massively understaffed. I think most of you would be appalled by how little I get paid to climb trees. But I love the place. It's really beautiful, the people I work with are great (most of them), and I'm learning an incredible amount about the diversity of tropical and subtropical flora. We have some amazing botanical collections which suffering due to neglect. I think we have one of the largest Ficus collections in the world, for instance.
Those big trees you remember Guy are white albizia (Paraserianthes falcataria). They are known to grow up to 40 feet in two years, under ideal conditions. As a result that have very light wood, are very weak, split very easily, and drop massive limbs without warning. Beautiful trees but they can be nervewracking to work in.
If any of you guys (or gals, if you're out there) ever comes to Hawaii please come by the Arboretum and ask for Leon. I'd be glad to give you a walkaround of our best stuff, and maybe even get some climbing in.
Those big trees you remember Guy are white albizia (Paraserianthes falcataria). They are known to grow up to 40 feet in two years, under ideal conditions. As a result that have very light wood, are very weak, split very easily, and drop massive limbs without warning. Beautiful trees but they can be nervewracking to work in.
If any of you guys (or gals, if you're out there) ever comes to Hawaii please come by the Arboretum and ask for Leon. I'd be glad to give you a walkaround of our best stuff, and maybe even get some climbing in.
Koa Man
Kahuna giganticus
rumination,
You should be getting paid at least $20 an hour to climb albizias. I took down 10 of those monsters about 10 years ago at Paradise Park, just below the Arboretum. I personally hate to climb big trees. Pulling long lengths of rope and using big saws in the trees, Ugh.
You should be getting paid at least $20 an hour to climb albizias. I took down 10 of those monsters about 10 years ago at Paradise Park, just below the Arboretum. I personally hate to climb big trees. Pulling long lengths of rope and using big saws in the trees, Ugh.
rumination
ArboristSite Guru
Koa Man,
my boss has hinted at my removing some of the big albizias at the arboretum. so far, I have pretty much refused. I have never rigged out a tree that large before, and especially not one as dangerous as an albizia. I have done some work in albizias, taking down broken limbs, removing some large banyans that were starting to take over. I do not enjoy working in these trees, and I agree with you about draggin ropes and big saws around being a PITA. Do like getting high though .
I have much respect for you, and anyone else who has taken one of these gargantuan trees down. Did you have to lower limbs when you did it, or could you just let them drop? I am unsure about lowering large limbs out of albizias because I worry about trusting the strength of the rigging point. Seeing 36" diameter limbs drop without warning on windless, rainless days does not inspire me with any confidence in these trees. I'd like to work with, or at least watch, a good climber doing this type of work before I attempt it myself. Let me know if you ever do anything like this and wouldn't mind an observer, or some volunteer help.
I consider myself to be a rookie climber. I have a lot of other duties at my job and I do not climb everyday, although I wish I could. I'm sure most of you guys would think I am pretty slow in the tree. However, I try to always be safe, think carefully about what I am doing, and so far I have always managed to get the job done right. I am still learning, and I have to credit this site with opening my mind to new levels of climbing and rigging. Thanks to everyone here for sharing their experience and knowledge!
my boss has hinted at my removing some of the big albizias at the arboretum. so far, I have pretty much refused. I have never rigged out a tree that large before, and especially not one as dangerous as an albizia. I have done some work in albizias, taking down broken limbs, removing some large banyans that were starting to take over. I do not enjoy working in these trees, and I agree with you about draggin ropes and big saws around being a PITA. Do like getting high though
.I have much respect for you, and anyone else who has taken one of these gargantuan trees down. Did you have to lower limbs when you did it, or could you just let them drop? I am unsure about lowering large limbs out of albizias because I worry about trusting the strength of the rigging point. Seeing 36" diameter limbs drop without warning on windless, rainless days does not inspire me with any confidence in these trees. I'd like to work with, or at least watch, a good climber doing this type of work before I attempt it myself. Let me know if you ever do anything like this and wouldn't mind an observer, or some volunteer help.
I consider myself to be a rookie climber. I have a lot of other duties at my job and I do not climb everyday, although I wish I could. I'm sure most of you guys would think I am pretty slow in the tree. However, I try to always be safe, think carefully about what I am doing, and so far I have always managed to get the job done right. I am still learning, and I have to credit this site with opening my mind to new levels of climbing and rigging. Thanks to everyone here for sharing their experience and knowledge!
rumination
ArboristSite Guru
Here's a photo of the tree in question. This is not a photo of Lyon Arboretum, I just pulled it off the internet. I'm pretty bad at judging tree heights but the most of the big albizias at the Arboretum are well in excess of 100 ft.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
I'm willing to relocate for six months, to a year, to show you a few tricks!
Koa Man
Kahuna giganticus
rumination,
The trees that were removed at the park required roping the branches on one side only. The other half of the tree and bucking down the trunk was a free fall. It is still extremely hard work to buck down a 100 ft. tall trunk using an 064 Stihl with a 36 inch bar. That thickness requires a tag line to pull the pieces over and then pulling up the rope again. Here is a photo of one I did, also in Manoa Valley that required rigging down the entire trunk. The owner had a red brick pad extending 10 ft. out from one side of the trunk. Not even one brick got broken. I did not do anything fancy. Just a single block, lowering line and a tag line.
I got a couple of other pictures of this removal on page 3 of this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11556
I did not take any photos of the park removals. Most of the time I don't have a capable photographer handy.
The trees that were removed at the park required roping the branches on one side only. The other half of the tree and bucking down the trunk was a free fall. It is still extremely hard work to buck down a 100 ft. tall trunk using an 064 Stihl with a 36 inch bar. That thickness requires a tag line to pull the pieces over and then pulling up the rope again. Here is a photo of one I did, also in Manoa Valley that required rigging down the entire trunk. The owner had a red brick pad extending 10 ft. out from one side of the trunk. Not even one brick got broken. I did not do anything fancy. Just a single block, lowering line and a tag line.
I got a couple of other pictures of this removal on page 3 of this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11556
I did not take any photos of the park removals. Most of the time I don't have a capable photographer handy.
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Koa Man
Kahuna giganticus
Here is another picture of the tree.
Those white tips at the bottom right are large branches that had broken off years earlier. I agree with you about hating to climb those things. I would let Butch do it. I need to make at least $750 a day to go up a large albizia.
Those white tips at the bottom right are large branches that had broken off years earlier. I agree with you about hating to climb those things. I would let Butch do it. I need to make at least $750 a day to go up a large albizia.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
I don't know what the heck an Albizia is like, but if you can make that much money in one day as a climber thats amazing!
I just might hitch-hike to Hawaii and check it out!
I just might hitch-hike to Hawaii and check it out!
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Butch, you got mimosas in LA, right? Is there a more brittle-wooded tree? Multiply a mimosa x 100 and you got those Hawaiian Albizia.
We run a two man crew 2 climbers, a 3 man crew 2 climbers one ground man. 4 man crew 3 climbers one ground man. Everybody cleans up. 3 man crew one lift truck one climber one ground man. 4 man crew one lift truck 2 climbers one groundman. 4 man crane crew. One operator who climbs, one climber 2 groundman.
Koa Man
Kahuna giganticus
Originally posted by MasterBlaster
I don't know what the heck an Albizia is like, but if you can make that much money in one day as a climber thats amazing!
I just might hitch-hike to Hawaii and check it out!
MB,
I am the owner/climber of my company. That is what I would charge for my time on an albizia, plus $40 an hour for each groundman. That is NOT what a climber working for somebody would get paid. I sometimes contract a good big tree climber here and pay him $25 an hour. When bidding jobs on ordinary type trees I base my time at $60 an hour. Large trees with thorns like opiuma or kapok get my special $125 an hour rate.
rumination
ArboristSite Guru
Not to be nitpicky or anything, but albizia (Paraserianthes falcataria) is native to Indonesia, not Hawaii. Gotta be careful though, cause there's a bunch of other trees also called albizia, including an Albizia genus.
OK, I guess that is nitpicky, but what can I do? that's what I get for hanging around botanists
Burnham
ArboristSite Operative
All project work by US Forest Service climbers is performed by a team consisting of at least two climbers. We do most of our work a long way from rescue/medical services; having available aerial rescue is the prime reason for the policy, but, as others have noted, keeping both climbers fresh not only improves productivity, but also reduces the inevitable increase in mistakes that creep in as fatigue takes it's tole.
