Thanks but I do not want a lightweight bar when cutting burning wood. I use all Cannon bars for that use. Stihl is fine too until you have to replace a nose. Besides the rails on Cannon bars are much harder than Stihl and wear much better.
24" Bar comparison - stihl cannon tsumura sugihara
- Thread starter redbull660
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KG441c
Keith
I like Cannon too. Thats about all I like to run
I think it's great that you review all these bars but unless you measure the bar groove I don't think the temp. measurements mean much. Inside bar groove surface finish should play into temp and longevity as well. Also, on the timed cuts how are you making sure the tension is exactly the same? Just asking some questions before the bulk of Arboristsite piles on the "Bar X" bandwagon...
SawTroll
Information Collector
redbull660
Addicted to ArboristSite
I did measure the bar grooves. Maybe you didn't watch the intro vid? Or look at the spread sheet I posted?
"inside bar groove surface finish" - few thoughts.
I don't know exactly why the custom bars perform better but my guess is that it could be any of the following...
- grooves are more true
- grooves are cut cleaner
- better metal used
- better paint and or clear coat finish which doesn't keep in. You can see where the tsumura finish is missing the temps drop even more. You can see in one of the temp vids that there was a 20-30 degree difference just going from the black on the cannon to the orange lettering (lettering was hotter).
why the tsumura & cannon run the coolest and fastest ...don't know. I don't care. They have consistently done so for every test, so it's not a fluke. And why would anyone be surprised anyway? Stihl is a mass produced bar.
I just didn't think there would be such a massive difference in the temps. It's been pretty consistent that the stihl tips have been around 75-100 degrees hotter than the customs. That's pretty major if you ask me.
It's been consistent that the jug temps have been cooler with the customs. That's gigantic to me. Saw life. Performance. Etc.
and another thing I didn't really show is that the custom bars cool down a lot faster than the stihl. And if you took the clear coat finish off the tsumura it would run like ice cold. I would have to say they are the best at dispersing heat with how they have their cut outs staggered.
Moparmyway
Its just a saw
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I'd like your comment. I have an older (but in very good condition) Sithl wide nose 24" bar in 050.
Do you think the nose or the gauge is making the bigger difference in your comparison.
Thanks.
Do you think the nose or the gauge is making the bigger difference in your comparison.
Thanks.
I'm surprised that both Stihl bars fared well (in cut speed) against the Cannon, and the wide nose was faster across the board!
Sure thing, a difference in the language I guess. I meant to ask about bar groove width, or gauge (actual not just .050,.058,.063) It's entirely possible the Stihl bars are machined to a tighter tolerance causing the temps. to be higher when new. For the record, I run Tsumura bars on pretty much everything but I'm very interested in the lightweight Cannons if they come out with them.
SawTroll
Information Collector
The wide nose bars damn well should be a little faster - but his testing has showed that other factors make much more differense.
The results are surpricingly consistent in favour of Tsumura/Total, considering that all variables can't have been eliminated.
KG441c
Keith
I would think the Cannon would be the tighest tolerances as they are handmade 1 at a time to within .002. I talked with the CEO of Cannon a few months back and the testing of the Cannon LW looked good and the release is set for Oct.
redbull660
Addicted to ArboristSite
.050 vs .063 - I think clearly from my testing the further you go out the less oil 050 delivers. From what I can tell, at around 28" seems to be the tipping point.
Nose - I don't think the nose plays much factor in the heat. Given the fact that Cannon actually uses the Stihl Wide nose for their Super Bar Plus line of bars. So in the 24" comparison the stihl tip on the stihl bar is running 147 F. But the stihl tip on the cannon bar is running at 87 F happened between 28" setups as well (had a 28 stihl wide for a short period of time) and the 30 and 36" stihl wides ...their tips ran hot as well. But the cannon 20 24 28 super bar plus wide tip...using the stihl wide tip - always were running in that 80-95 F area.
Why? I guess I don't know...maybe the grooves on the tips are wider and rely on the sprocket to guide the chain around?
Maybe a stihl bar needs to be worn in? But why would you run your saw hot until that happens? And figuring it does wear in, then it's going to keep wearing (as the groove rails have to be soft enough to wear in the first place) and I'd have to guess that would cause other unwanted issues and it kept wearing.
should prove interesting to see what cannon comes up with on the LW side of things. My main concern is how much we talking? $$$
Speed wise I think Tsumura has the better tip over cannon narrow. If you put a narrow nose cannon up against the narrow nose tsumura the tsumura kills it. Figuring the grooves are equal?, then that leaves the tip? Or maybe tsumuras grooves are even cleaner?
BUT I've gotta test this more (cannon narrow nose vs tsumura) because so far most of my tests between the two have just been using the wide nose cannon against the tsumura and the wide nose seems to have an advantage in cookie cutting.
KG441c
Keith
Redbull the email u gave me didnt pan out so im back to scratch on the bars. I sure think a Cannon Superbar Plus .404 .063 24" would be awesome on my MMWS 390xp though
Moparmyway
Its just a saw
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If votes count, I vote for this further testing to be done on the 661. Let the M-Tronic do its thing, it could allow the leader to pull away !!!!
redbull660
Addicted to ArboristSite
yeah i've got a 36 Cannon narrow and 36 tsumura and ive got the 661R's of course heh
edit: ok hopefully this weekend I'll face these two off and take temps of each. Then we'll know how the narrow nose cannon performs vs tsumura
edit: ok hopefully this weekend I'll face these two off and take temps of each. Then we'll know how the narrow nose cannon performs vs tsumura
Trx250r180
Saw polisher
I have noticed new bars have more drag to them ,once they are run a few tanks the chain spins more free ,I can also see why the cannon runs cooler being black ,why do you think auto radiators are painted black ? The color dissipates heat better for some reason .
Great post Brian!
I agree with Junk Man..... the load bearing surfaces on a new bar are going to be less polished than a bar that has been run for a while. Without knowing if all the bars are equally broken in, it could potentially effect the results of this kind of test.
redbull660
Addicted to ArboristSite
the only bars that didn't have a little time on them were the sugi 24, sugi 28 and sugi 32. Given that the results were consistently the same for the 20" test, 24" test, 28" test, 32" test, 36" test. I'd have to disagree. And even if it we're the case that stihl had to be broken in. I personally think it would suck if the metal/rails were that soft in the first place.
