A better way

[JakeG]

Mornin'... I'm looking for the pro's take on a situation I ran into yesterday. I don't have as many "tools" in my bag of tricks as you all, so if you don't mind, shoot me some advice.

This pine was coming up on 30" and 96' tall. Moderate back & side lean towards the neighboring property & a couple of ornamental trees. The property owner wanted to keep all healthy trees in tact if possible. So the goal was to drop it in the small window pictured below. Note: Assume you are in the woods without another hand to help pull it down. Try not to hit the small oak! Leave your feller buncher at home... Only chainsaws and wedges opcorn:

Here's the situation

 

[Slade McCuiston]

I'm not a logger, but the diagram makes it look as if there's almost no hope of saving the small oak tree. Maybe pictures of the site would help us more than the drawing (in regards to the window where you can safely lay the tree). If I was in that situation, and I'm probably going to be scolded by some professional guys here, but I'd make an open face cut that holds the tree on the stump longer, in the direction of the way you want the tree to fall. Then, make a back cut that severs the holding wood on the side opposite the side lean, but leave 3" or so of holding wood on the side of the side lean. This should swing the tree enough, in my experience, to hit that window... as long as you make sure to wedge it over. You don't want it to fall backwards, or sit on your bar.

Check for soundness before you cut! Bore into the tree to make sure you're not going to have a mess on your hands. You definitely don't want rotten holding wood if you're going to swing a tree.

 

[northmanlogging]

Whats opposite the small oak? Just how bad is the lean? Or what is opposite the fence line? If the lean is not to hard these would all be viable options with just wedges and a saw.


A better plan would be to hang a line in it and use a come-a-long to redirect the fall. Or if the lean is severe to hire a pro.

 

[JakeG]

Whats opposite the small oak? Just how bad is the lean? Or what is opposite the fence line? If the lean is not to hard these would all be viable options with just wedges and a saw.


A better plan would be to hang a line in it and use a come-a-long to redirect the fall. Or if the lean is severe to hire a pro.

Thanks northman, I did hang a line about 60' up but ended up not using it. The back lean was almost enough to call it a heavy back leaner but not quite. The edge of the canopy (widow makers in this case) was almost on the same plane as the front side of the stump.

When taking this picture, I was photographing the widow makers and not the lean... So it's not as apparent as in person.



Opposite the small oak.. As in the other green circles? I didn't label everything, but all the green circles are good trees he did not want damaged if at all possible.

 

[northmanlogging]

Opposite the label "small oak" in your diagram... or opposite the window.


From the looks of the picture, and the amount of little trees around it, something is going to get smooshed no matter what way it goes. Best bet is to aim for the path of lesser evil and cross yer fingers the oak branches aren't too brittle...

As far as getting it to go where you want it to, that line hung in it you mentioned is going to be safer than beating wedges with them widow makers hanging around up there.

But if you're bound and determined to cut it,

Face the tree in your usual way, humboldt vs standard (fight!) then on the side under the lean nip a bit of the hold wood (kerf dutch) then dog in on your back cut but plan on leaving a bunch of wood on the tension side. Should swing it around just enough to follow the face, but its not a for sure thing, hold wood could break or you cut to much to little hold wood, and ruin everything. All depends on you, your luck, and how sound the tree is.

You would be money ahead to hand a line in it and pull it the direction you want it to fall.

 

[JakeG]

Thanks Slade and thanks again Northman.. No fight here on the humbolt or dutchman, I'm just here to learn. You're right about there being very little options for not causing damage.

The tree did in fact go where I wanted it to, though I wanted to see if there was a more advanced way of getting the job done.

Whether it was the right thing to do or not, it worked. I went with a standard face 180* to the back lean and nipped the holding wood opposite of the small oak. It started towards the face and quickly turned on the stump falling into the window. I was chuckling since I was not convinced it would turn out. I may have had some help on this one

 

[Slade McCuiston]

I'm so glad to see that this worked out for you. Sometimes, no matter what you do, a tree is going to do it's own thing. However, good knowledge greatly tilts those odds into your favor. I will say, however, that I wasn't sure that the small oak was going to survive that tree... You did a great job laying that tree exactly where she was supposed to go. Didn't take much nipping at the hinge wood, either, did it?

 

[bitzer]

Looks like it worked out, but about 70 dergees from the face yet? My guess is you pounded it until it was close and then cut your near side wood off letting it go. Always face to your lay.

 

[Slade McCuiston]

I've seen this done both ways, with the face cut facing your lay and the face cut facing the direction of lean. I, personally, face my face cut into the lay. However, this worked for him, and I've seen professionals doing this. So, no harm no foul. I didn't know the small oak was so close, though. However, I like (especially on cuts like this) an open face cut so it stays on the stump longer. To each their own.

Edit - after looking at the picture again, I probably woudn't have made the face cut match the lay in this instance. I'd be afraid that it would take out the oak. Eh, doesn't matter now. The tree's on the ground, exactly where it is supposed to be.

 

[bustedup]

I'd have to agree with Bitz .....face to your lay otherwise ya fighting even more.


There are different ways of swinging sticks but no one technique fits all. imo always remember tho the fancier ya get the more can go wrong theory don't always translate lol

However ya got the job done and layed it good so good on ya

 

[JakeG]

I also agree that facing to the lay is a no-brainer. I was lucky enough to be out in the woods where I could "try something" so to speak. I don't have the skill/experience to face this tree towards the small oak without crushing it.

If there is a way to face this tree so it drops in the same direction without hitting the oak, please run it by me. I could use the knowledge. Maybe lower the back cut and wedge it over in an attempt to jump/kicks back onto the stump? That's not something I feel safe doing as I don't have experience doing so... Just looking for further options on how this could have been accomplished.

 

[bustedup]

I also agree that facing to the lay is a no-brainer. I was lucky enough to be out in the woods where I could "try something" so to speak. I don't have the skill/experience to face this tree towards the small oak without crushing it.

If there is a way to face this tree so it drops in the same direction without hitting the oak, please run it by me. I could use the knowledge. Maybe lower the back cut and wedge it over in an attempt to jump/kicks back onto the stump? That's not something I feel safe doing as I don't have experience doing so... Just looking for further options on how this could have been accomplished.

Ask Bitz to run the soft dutch past ya.......he cuts more often than I do now .......I think he got pics posted bout that.

Otherwise a swing or step dutch would prob do the job ....but again (not knocking ya bro) if ya gonna make those cuts would suggest trying them out before ya get in a situation where things could get squished.

 

[bitzer]

A snipe on the side of the stump you want the butt to kick off of would do it. Probably. Theres a lot of luck involved if a little tree like that doesn't get smashed. That and a steep Humboldt would help get the butt on the ground fast and out of the way. I don't know that any fancy swing cuts would help. I have put a Dutchman in and wedged it to bring it ahead and forward. Like put the wedge in at the corner where you think the tree is sitting back on. As long as you keep enough holding wood on the near side it will hang on until you bring it out to the face and it is a lot easier to wedge. There is a fine line here though. You can have it sit back hard and lose it if no done right.

 

[hammerlogging]

Allow me to clarify something here. the fact that it fell more or less 90 degrees from the faced direction is WAY ####ed up. As in ludicrous. and completely ####ing assinine. did I make myself clear? To think that this is considered a technique to be purposely applied, and duplicated, is even more ####ed up.

A closed face with a bit of a dutchman, or even no dutchman, and get that hinge nipped off once she's committed to the lay and she'd have at worst rolled off the oak bu it would have made it.

You just got lucky. That method has no place in logical falling procedure..

I am glad you got lucky though.

 

[JakeG]

Allow me to clarify something here. the fact that it fell more or less 90 degrees from the faced direction is WAY ####ed up. As in ludicrous. and completely ####ing assinine. did I make myself clear? To think that this is considered a technique to be purposely applied, and duplicated, is even more ####ed up.

A closed face with a bit of a dutchman, or even no dutchman, and get that hinge nipped off once she's committed to the lay and she'd have at worst rolled off the oak bu it would have made it.

You just got lucky. That method has no place in logical falling procedure..

I am glad you got lucky though.

There ya go, that's exactly what I was thinking when I posted this. "There has got to be a better way, this was a hack job which had everything to do with luck... so I better ask the loggers."

In no way do I want to duplicate this or recommend someone attempt to repeat what I did.

If there is a next time, I won't consider saving a small tree.

Thanks for helping me rethink this one fellas, cheers.

 

[redprospector]

I've heard that it's better to be lucky than good. But I wouldn't want to count on that kind of luck all the time.

Andy

 

[woodchuck357]

Try doing it a few times where there is nothing to be lost if it goes bad

You may have lucked into a trick that might save your bacon in a more touchy situation than that presented by the oak sapling.

I most likely would have made a deeper notch and back cut at the apex of the notch. That seems to produce a stronger hinge rather than a split down from the back cut to the notch. The best luck comes from practice and keeping your eyes and mind open.

 

[bitzer]

Allow me to clarify something here. the fact that it fell more or less 90 degrees from the faced direction is WAY ####ed up. As in ludicrous. and completely ####ing assinine. did I make myself clear? To think that this is considered a technique to be purposely applied, and duplicated, is even more ####ed up.

A closed face with a bit of a dutchman, or even no dutchman, and get that hinge nipped off once she's committed to the lay and she'd have at worst rolled off the oak bu it would have made it.

You just got lucky. That method has no place in logical falling procedure..

I am glad you got lucky though.

Joe your blunt honesty always kills me! I was trying to be nice! Good post!

 

[dooby]

Allow me to clarify something here. the fact that it fell more or less 90 degrees from the faced direction is WAY ####ed up. As in ludicrous. and completely ####ing assinine. did I make myself clear? To think that this is considered a technique to be purposely applied, and duplicated, is even more ####ed up.

A closed face with a bit of a dutchman, or even no dutchman, and get that hinge nipped off once she's committed to the lay and she'd have at worst rolled off the oak bu it would have made it.

You just got lucky. That method has no place in logical falling procedure..

I am glad you got lucky though.

Between this comment and bitzers post, I agree; you got lucky!!! and those poor wedges! Were they new when you started that tree? LOL.

 

[JakeG]

I've heard that it's better to be lucky than good. But I wouldn't want to count on that kind of luck all the time.

Andy

I don't think I'll ever count on luck unless I'm playing black jack. :wink2:

You may have lucked into a trick that might save your bacon in a more touchy situation than that presented by the oak sapling.

I most likely would have made a deeper notch and back cut at the apex of the notch. That seems to produce a stronger hinge rather than a split down from the back cut to the notch. The best luck comes from practice and keeping your eyes and mind open.

Thanks for the input woodchuck. Practice, eyes open, mind open.. Don't forget to look up.

Between this comment and bitzers post, I agree; you got lucky!!! and those poor wedges! Were they new when you started that tree? LOL.

Definitely not new! Two were from January-ish, the 12" is 3 months old. There's no doubting luck.. Like I said, I think I had a little help