A geniune disaster, all man made.

[Rookie1]

I say we learn from our mistakes. So the brite side is hell never dump the clutch when the tractor is hanging by a chain on the wheel.
Also SH)T HAPPENS. As long as he didnt do it on pupose then id move on and bust his chops later about it.

 

[pdqdl]

not for nothing,,, sounds like piss poor rigging !!!! then putting a man on it ??? why didn't you just rig the thing from 4 corners and pick the thing up , and set it on the ground ???? this senerio , is just screaming for someone to get hurt !! JMHO

Just stumps, eh? Got any experience lifting tractors?

It's not like I was swinging the tractor around 20' overhead! The relatively small tractor was only suspended about 6" above the deck & ramps of the trailer when Mike lost control. Very gentle, very under control. There really was very low risk involved, until he started the machine up, and caused it to leap off the trailer. Try to keep in mind that he was sitting on the tractor in exactly the same spot before I had a crane holding it up for safety. If he had not suggested starting the engine, I would only have had one of the guys give the mower deck a shove sideways. It seemed so simple at the time.

Counter arguments to a 4 point lift:

1. It's not that big of a crane. Safer to not test any limits, including the chains and rigging. If my rigging failed, the tractor would have only fallen back into the spot it was just lifted out of. No big deal. If lifted from 4 points, and one side of the rigging fails, the tractor flips, similar to what happened when the tractor was driven out from under the rigging. In order to clear the trailer with the mower deck and the odd angle at which the tractor was perched, I would have had to have the whole tractor at least 3' higher than the trailer. About 5 feet overall, with the mower deck tail wheel pointed sharply at the ground.

2. Rigging both sides of a tractor, front and back require "spreader bars" to prevent the chains from crushing the fenders and cowl. I don't have any.

3. The tractor had one wheel in a hole between the ramps. and was skewed sideways on the trailer. If lifted from 4 points, then it would have been lifted from 4 points at the same odd angle, both relative to the ground and to the trailer. Sure, it could have been done, but why bother ?

All I needed to do was pick up one side, pivot on the right rear tire, and set it on the trailer. When Mike started the tractor in gear, the tractor was suspended on one side only, with the right side of the tractor lined up with the trailer, wheels in contact with the deck. The ONLY thing dangerous was the fact that he drove the tractor out from under the crane.

If you consider placing confidence in a man with 10 years of experience a dangerous option, who do you put on the end of YOUR rope ?

 

[pdqdl]

How would you have rigged it?

..
Of course, after the fact, I can say that it would have been smarter to rig the tractor differently. I would also like to tell myself that I would have made the smarter choice. Without the time pressures, I think that I truly would have done so. Under the real world stress and pressures of trying to get back on schedule............. being able to say " nobody got hurt, nothing got broke" is the best you get.
Personally, I have learned that when I feel under time pressure, the best thing for me to do is force myself to SLOW DOWN. Doing so has saved my life more than once in 25 years of aviation. The scariest moments of my life came from not taking a few extra minutes to think or double check something. I'm finding tree work to require the same attitude.

In retrospect, I would not change anything but who I put on the tractor brake, and I would probably not have allowed them to start the tractor. I was not hurrying when I lifted the tractor.

Several things to think about: How are you going to keep the tractor on the trailer after you set it down ? This tractor does not have parking brakes. Who is going to keep the steering wheel under control when it turns or settles down? I'm sure you think it is safer to stand beside or beneath it ?

In general, it is always bad form to be under a suspended load, and usually bad form to be ON a suspended load. That is why I picked it up only on one side and gently put that side back on the trailer. The majority of the weight of the 5000 lb (rough guess) tractor was on the right rear tire, firmly supported by the deck of a 20,000 lb rated trailer. With a man standing on that brake. Perhaps I should have tied the brake down, but that would be unpredictable also.

 

[pdqdl]

Follow up report:

I never spoke harshly to Mike. I know now he doesn't perform well hanging from a cable, so I won't do that again. He made a mistake. Oops.

Mike went out today with only one man to help him. He cut more properties and made more money with that beat up old $5,000 tractor and a pickup truck than the other crew of five men, two trucks, and a 50,000 tractor.

Yes, he got a nice bonus.

 

[Rookie1]

Hey pdqdl you are getting carried away. Relax,You sound like a smart guy. Im sure you did everything OK. Dont overanalyze what happened. Like I said we learn from our mistakes. Move on.

 

[LarryTheCableGuy]

...Personally, I have learned that when I feel under time pressure, the best thing for me to do is force myself to SLOW DOWN...

The best thing and sometimes the farthest thing from your mind and one of the hardest things to do at the moment.

 

[pdqdl]

5 machine roll- overs?

5 events in 26 years; not too bad if you consider all the facts. We specialize in mowing severe terrain and steep slopes. I have one contract with KCMO that my company has been the ONLY contractor willing to mow since 1988. If we didn't mow it, then it didn't get mowed. Many years it went wild, and more recently, nobody else bid on doing the job but me. Three times, now.

So my guys get too comfortable operating on slopes, or they see a more experienced operator doing a job, and then they overestimate their talents. Two of those rollovers occurred on slopes I had previously mowed with the same machine, and had left instructions to NEVER put the tractor there again. They didn't listen, and over they went.

My personal rollover was purely operator error: it was a machine I had never been in, operating on a steep slope, doing a job I had never tried to do before. No, I had no training whatsoever. It is my job to figure these things out, and then train my people. Now that I have more experience in that situation, I would go to exactly the same spot, do the same job, and never go over backwards.

There is a learning curve for all jobs. The curve is rather sharply curved upwards for being a tractor operator on hilly terrain.

 

[juststumps]

Just stumps, eh? Got any experience lifting tractors?

It's not like I was swinging the tractor around 20' overhead! The relatively small tractor was only suspended about 6" above the deck & ramps of the trailer when Mike lost control. Very gentle, very under control. There really was very low risk involved, until he started the machine up, and caused it to leap off the trailer. Try to keep in mind that he was sitting on the tractor in exactly the same spot before I had a crane holding it up for safety. If he had not suggested starting the engine, I would only have had one of the guys give the mower deck a shove sideways. It seemed so simple at the time.

Counter arguments to a 4 point lift:

1. It's not that big of a crane. Safer to not test any limits, including the chains and rigging. If my rigging failed, the tractor would have only fallen back into the spot it was just lifted out of. No big deal. If lifted from 4 points, and one side of the rigging fails, the tractor flips, similar to what happened when the tractor was driven out from under the rigging. In order to clear the trailer with the mower deck and the odd angle at which the tractor was perched, I would have had to have the whole tractor at least 3' higher than the trailer. About 5 feet overall, with the mower deck tail wheel pointed sharply at the ground.

2. Rigging both sides of a tractor, front and back require "spreader bars" to prevent the chains from crushing the fenders and cowl. I don't have any.

3. The tractor had one wheel in a hole between the ramps. and was skewed sideways on the trailer. If lifted from 4 points, then it would have been lifted from 4 points at the same odd angle, both relative to the ground and to the trailer. Sure, it could have been done, but why bother ?

All I needed to do was pick up one side, pivot on the right rear tire, and set it on the trailer. When Mike started the tractor in gear, the tractor was suspended on one side only, with the right side of the tractor lined up with the trailer, wheels in contact with the deck. The ONLY thing dangerous was the fact that he drove the tractor out from under the crane.

If you consider placing confidence in a man with 10 years of experience a dangerous option, who do you put on the end of YOUR rope ?

Ahh, yup ,,,them and assorted stuff up to 50 ton transformers....i don't mean to get into a pissing match here,, but you almost took your self out ( having to hide behind an outrigger ) and your guy leaping off the machine after it tipped....

point1
this doesn't really make any sense , you didn't worry about rigging failure the way you did it..you really don't know whats going to happen if something fails..

point2
i'd rather buy new sheet metal , than having to put my black suit on,,, or being laid out in it...

point 3
"why bother " why not ??? see point 2 ..

just my 2 cents,,,,glad no one got hurt....

 

[ropensaddle]

5 events in 26 years; not too bad if you consider all the facts. We specialize in mowing severe terrain and steep slopes. I have one contract with KCMO that my company has been the ONLY contractor willing to mow since 1988. If we didn't mow it, then it didn't get mowed. Many years it went wild, and more recently, nobody else bid on doing the job but me. Three times, now.

So my guys get too comfortable operating on slopes, or they see a more experienced operator doing a job, and then they overestimate their talents. Two of those rollovers occurred on slopes I had previously mowed with the same machine, and had left instructions to NEVER put the tractor there again. They didn't listen, and over they went.

My personal rollover was purely operator error: it was a machine I had never been in, operating on a steep slope, doing a job I had never tried to do before. No, I had no training whatsoever. It is my job to figure these things out, and then train my people. Now that I have more experience in that situation, I would go to exactly the same spot, do the same job, and never go over backwards.

There is a learning curve for all jobs. The curve is rather sharply curved upwards for being a tractor operator on hilly terrain.

I have operated tractors on steep ground for many years and have yet
to turn one over, been close two wheels etc. This is steep ground here
with big rocks that bump ya at just the wrong moment. I have had to hog
on hill sides using winch instead of gears and it makes you double check a winch line and everything for that matter. The brown tree cutters we
ran and kershaws and axes got the job done well I prefer the Kershaw.

 

[pdqdl]

Ahh, yup ,,,them and assorted stuff up to 50 ton transformers....i don't mean to get into a pissing match here,, but you almost took your self out ( having to hide behind an outrigger ) and your guy leaping off the machine after it tipped....

point1
this doesn't really make any sense , you didn't worry about rigging failure the way you did it..you really don't know whats going to happen if something fails..

point2
i'd rather buy new sheet metal , than having to put my black suit on,,, or being laid out in it...

point 3
"why bother " why not ??? see point 2 ..

just my 2 cents,,,,glad no one got hurt....

Sure. I could have even called in a mega-crane, parked it 200 feet away, and lifted the little tractor from complete safety to all. Pretty pointless, though, since what I did was quite safe, up until somebody started the tractor.

Nobody seems to get my point on this: There was nothing wrong with our technique, except that an operator did something incredibly stupid. No amount of safeties can protect you from "incredibly dumb" actions.

Even a mega-crane 200' away needs a careful operator that doesn't do dumb things.


Counterpoint1: Yes, I do. If you pick something up 6", then it can only fall 6". [if you drive something 5' up a chain, then it can fall 5' down, as well]

Counterpoint2: I would rather not buy anything, which is why I did it the way I did.

Counterpoint 3: "why bother " see point 1 & 2 ..

 

[ropensaddle]

Guys the only one that pulled a dumbaz? was the one on that tractor.
Pdl if it were me it would have went fine! I have moved stuff around with my grapple inches off the ground and you are absolutely correct 6" is 6". One thing I have learned pdql is; you cant teach the unteachable, no matter how ya try they just get dumber

 

[juststumps]

Just stumps, eh? Got any experience lifting tractors?

It's not like I was swinging the tractor around 20' overhead! The relatively small tractor was only suspended about 6" above the deck & ramps of the trailer when Mike lost control. Very gentle, very under control. There really was very low risk involved, until he started the machine up, and caused it to leap off the trailer. Try to keep in mind that he was sitting on the tractor in exactly the same spot before I had a crane holding it up for safety. If he had not suggested starting the engine, I would only have had one of the guys give the mower deck a shove sideways. It seemed so simple at the time.

Counter arguments to a 4 point lift:

1. It's not that big of a crane. Safer to not test any limits, including the chains and rigging. If my rigging failed, the tractor would have only fallen back into the spot it was just lifted out of. No big deal. If lifted from 4 points, and one side of the rigging fails, the tractor flips, similar to what happened when the tractor was driven out from under the rigging. In order to clear the trailer with the mower deck and the odd angle at which the tractor was perched, I would have had to have the whole tractor at least 3' higher than the trailer. About 5 feet overall, with the mower deck tail wheel pointed sharply at the ground.

2. Rigging both sides of a tractor, front and back require "spreader bars" to prevent the chains from crushing the fenders and cowl. I don't have any.

3. The tractor had one wheel in a hole between the ramps. and was skewed sideways on the trailer. If lifted from 4 points, then it would have been lifted from 4 points at the same odd angle, both relative to the ground and to the trailer. Sure, it could have been done, but why bother ?

All I needed to do was pick up one side, pivot on the right rear tire, and set it on the trailer. When Mike started the tractor in gear, the tractor was suspended on one side only, with the right side of the tractor lined up with the trailer, wheels in contact with the deck. The ONLY thing dangerous was the fact that he drove the tractor out from under the crane.

If you consider placing confidence in a man with 10 years of experience a dangerous option, who do you put on the end of YOUR rope ?

Sure. I could have even called in a mega-crane, parked it 200 feet away, and lifted the little tractor from complete safety to all. Pretty pointless, though, since what I did was quite safe, up until somebody started the tractor.

Nobody seems to get my point on this: There was nothing wrong with our technique, except that an operator did something incredibly stupid. No amount of safeties can protect you from "incredibly dumb" actions.

Even a mega-crane 200' away needs a careful operator that doesn't do dumb things.


Counterpoint1: Yes, I do. If you pick something up 6", then it can only fall 6". [if you drive something 5' up a chain, then it can fall 5' down, as well]

Counterpoint2: I would rather not buy anything, which is why I did it the way I did.

Counterpoint 3: "why bother " see point 1 & 2 ..

1. It's not that big of a crane. Safer to not test any limits, including the chains and rigging.

1A: if you don't know your limits of your crane, or your rigging,,, you really shouldn't be running a crane.... as DIRTY HARRY said in MAGNUM FORCE ,, A MAN HAS TO KNOW HIS LIMITATIONS !

2. Rigging both sides of a tractor, front and back require "spreader bars" to prevent the chains from crushing the fenders and cowl. I don't have any.

Counterpoint2: I would rather not buy anything, which is why I did it the way I did.

2A: so your healt is worth less than some sheet metal,,,,which you could have taken off, if it was in the way !!

3. The tractor had one wheel in a hole between the ramps. and was skewed sideways on the trailer. If lifted from 4 points, then it would have been lifted from 4 points at the same odd angle, both relative to the ground and to the trailer. Sure, it could have been done, but why bother ?

3A: this is the one i really like!!!! "WHY BOTHER" WHY???? I"LL TELL YOU WHY !! you almost took two men out !!!! your self and your employee !!!!!

Nobody seems to get my point on this: There was nothing wrong with our technique, except that an operator did something incredibly stupid. No amount of safeties can protect you from "incredibly dumb" actions.

yeah nobody gets it,it isn't a TECHNIQUE,,, it was a SHORT CUT...you were the boss and crane operator....don't blame the guy mike,, its all on you !!!!

i'm just glad no one got hurt!!!! stumps

 

[Climbing Fool]

Interesting read. Lots of accidents in the Australian lifting industry in the past. So now it is regulated 6 ways to Sunday. Still lose guys from time to time though. Every single one I have read up on has been ruled "avoidable accident" and almost every one of those involved a rigger being on/under/near the item being lifted. Imho if you havent got spreaders or 4 stable lifting points then just don't lift any vehicle.

It is very easy for business owners to feel they "cannot hire good help". The risk is in letting the "hired help" know this. Instead of ear bashing an employee over his or her failure, try asking them how they believe they could have avoided their mistake. Skilled employee's are far more valuable than lost time and any time spent improving their skills or self confidence is a sound investment.

Or you could just get him to clean your toilet with his toothbrush......

 

[Jkebxjunke]

:deadhorse: there is one point that keeps getting missed here... everything was going fine until the tractor was started in gear. If he had taken it out of gear before starting it there wouldn't be a story. And during stressful times we tend to forget things. I have a routine when starting any of my tractors to push in the clutch and be sure its out of gear... even though they has interlocks and safety switches that keep the tractor from being started while in gear. :deadhorse: I am not going to point any fingers or poke blame because I have done stupid things too and you try to make do with what you have....:deadhorse: and like it was stated many times it was a 6" lift only part of the tractor. yeah he could have called in a mega crane.. if you can get one on short notice and blow the payroll for the next month.. but it looked like a simple little lift of putting the tractor back on the ramp and that's it...:deadhorse: some people don't preform well in pressure situations.. and it was found out before anybody got killed and nobody was killed or hurt.. you chalk it up to experience and just try not to do it again. and at then end of the day .. isn't that what really matters? :deadhorse:

 

[pdqdl]

:agree2:

Thank you, that was my point !

 

[Jkebxjunke]

:agree2:

Thank you, that was my point !

my guess is that if you would have blown the payroll on the 'rescue' then guess who didn't get paid that week or to eat. ... yourself. the joys of being a small business owner. ( or a farmer)

 

[pdqdl]

You weren't there, and I don't have pictures.

...

[much deleted for brevity]

...yeah nobody gets it,it isn't a TECHNIQUE,,, it was a SHORT CUT...you were the boss and crane operator....don't blame the guy mike,, its all on you !!!!
... stumps

No, the SHORTCUT would have been for me to have two guys stand on the rear of the mower deck, raise the tractors 3-point hitch, thereby raising the front end with the counterweight of the mower deck. Then I would have gotten on the tractor myself and just driven it out of the tight spot without any crane at all.

That would have been the shortcut.

Face it stumps, you weren't there, and you are the sort of person that does things the "perfect" way, impractical or not. Hence, "just stumps". Your commitment to "being right" prevents you from seeing the validity of my arguments.

I am the sort of renegade that is committed to getting a job DONE, and I tend to work around difficulties and obstructions. Hence, PDQdl. Since I am mostly a fearless individual, "risk" for me boils down to calculating the probability of success and evaluating the consequences of failure. My own commitment to "being right" prevents me from entertaining even the slightest notion of picking up the tractor from 4 points, since I was there, and I SAW what was needed.

I evaluated the "4-point lift" option before I even went to get the crane, and I discarded it as unnecessary and wasteful.

You, however, seem to know everything about the situation, including the shape of my tractor fenders and engine cowl, what lift points would even be possible on the tractor, and all of the myriad of other considerations necessary to know before recommending a solution to the problem. But that didn't hold you back, did it?

Anything to be right, eh?

 

[B-Edwards]

I'm thinking the time has come to take Mike to the rack and give him that beating i recomended earlier :hmm3grin2orange: .

 

[oldirty]

the way i see it no harm no foul.

his best option would have been to use one of his clones. that way his clone would know exactly what to do on the tractor while he himself would operate from the crane.

perfect.


i know i could use a few more of me on the jobsite doing it the way i do. lol

 

[pdqdl]

Shucks, I never even got upset with Mike. He'll probably have nightmares for years from now, following every time he has to unload a trailer.

It's the know-it-alls that keep taking pot shots at me that should get tied to the rack.

IMO