Above your TIP?/Hanging in the smallwood.

[Stumper]

I did a crown reduction on a honey locust today. I wound up climbing above my TIP for my climbing line (but I was below My TIP for my Lanyard). I left the life line on the 4.5" leader, flipped my lanyard around a 2.5 inch crotch and stepped into the crotch above my life line. I then proceeded to thin/reduce the crown with my handsaw.-hanging on my lanyard. Surrounded by 2+ inch limbs I felt very secure(which is something for me since I am essentially a tree climbing chicken ) I did get to wondering though-What is your general 'policy' when working in the small stuff- under wrist sized. I know every species and every individual tree is different-I've commented before about being sanguine about tying into 2" healthy Oak and scared of 4.5 inch cottonwood.
What are the methods we are using? Do you double crotch on sub wristsized stuff? Leave the climbing line below you an work off the lanyard? Something else? Never work in the tip top?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Lock the line from riding up..., and redirect with sling in similar situation from secondary support (maybe with 1 or both legs) to work a 'zone'. Or just go around a number of upper supports as 1 support.

Sometimes go from main support (low) to redierct(sling/karab)(higher), then to saddle, then clip into 1 or both legs of line going from main support to redirect; yielding 4 or 6 legs of support to saddle respectively; rather than standard 2.

But that is probably cheating!

:alien:

 

[Stumper]

Spydy, I have done the multicrotched tie in you are talking about-(1st scenario). I often find it "squishy" though. The more I lean back into the saddle the more the crotches close and I can wind up unable to maintain a postion.- The fact that I outweigh you by 85 pounds may be a factor.
Your second method sounds secure-sort of a rock climbers multi point protection system. Does it tend to get complicated trying to work around?

Brian, You nailed it about why I felt secure- with so many limbs there are hand and footholds everywhere as well as limbs to lean against. A free fall from 3-4 feet avove the climbing line's TIP equates to 6'-8'of fall and a big hurt but it is a non issue when you can't possibly fall freely. I wouldn't do it without the lanyard though- I'm sure you don't either.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

It can get 'squishy', but i load it some and keep it loaded, accepting it as a soft hammock, basketing me.

The biggest thing with adding more legs is all the adjustment length in and out; but when ya need it , it can be worth it. And you don't have to grab both lines, one can even be rerouted to a diffrent support angle etc.

A lot of my stuff of course is like Brian's, making it rain small dead 'hairs' to reveal a truer shade of green cap; but there are plenty of times i have faced this low angle or above TIP positioning. Even seems that i was the one chosen to go their with other climbers around...

Sometimes i lay down across everything spreading out my massive weight across a bunch of points across that grande 4' expanse.

Though, i favour my $10 29/30 Rustlers for that.

i guess that means it prolly isn't GRCS territory in either sense.........



edit- i also tie in low and strong (locking line from rising higher)in peeked stuff, then choke in a sling/karab every 5-8' up and run both lines thru, sometimes 4+ sets, lending kinda a 'mountaineers' vertically tiered support, allowing for diffrent sections to break out and still catch ya with minimum drop. They can also double for rig points or load hitches on the way back down. i picture a mountain climber taking a fall and 1 or 2 support anchors giving out and the rest catching.

 

[Burnham]

Working in conifers above 4 to 5 inches of stem diameter we use a self-belay system that sounds a bit like Spyder's, but with alot more vertical movement built into it. To pick cones you'll need to go up to about 2 inches stem diameter, and this can easily be 20 feet or more above "safe" tie in point. I use a seperate safety line for this, about 35 feet long, to keep my main lifeline out of the pitchiest part of the tree, and to keep from hauling a full 225 or 300 foot line (which is what you have to have for this work here in western Oregon) all the way up there. You can visualize this working rope as a really long adjustable lanyard. Anchor your working rope around the stem at about 5 inches diameter, with a prusik loop on it clipped to your harness. Advance the prusik about 3 feet, unclip your lanyard, climb up the limbs 3 feet, clip in lanyard, basket hitch a sling around the stem, put your working line in the biner on the sling, advance your prusik 3 more feet, unclip lanyard, ascend again, repeat as needed. Keep your protection points close together ( 3 feet) so you won't ever fall more than 6 feet. NEVER remove your harness attachment to your prusik loop. Don't forget to tie a figure 8 knot in the tail of your working line. You can biner this back to your harness if you want, but I hate having that loop to drag around the top of the tree, so I don't. If the top or small limbs break out up in the skinny part, you'll not hit the ground, though it'll surely scare you bad (voice of experience).

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Burn, do you know anyone using the ropewalker system to enter the big trees? Chisholm used one at the redwood project Gerry Beranek ran last month and it looked much better then foing an FL for 200 feet (wich i ended up doing the first time.)

I climb over my main TIP all the time, since my style is more "aid climbing" my lanyard is usualy above me before i move up anyways. Love my 30 ft lanyard.

 

[Burnham]

JPS--Several of the "big tree" experts that I train with use a ropewalker style system...the Mitchell system seems to be most popular. Getting into more complex ropewalker setups like single and double bungee definately can improve efficiency over the basic Mitchell, but any time you add extra components you have increased maintenance, and a tendency to get tangled in the tree environment. I have not seen tree climbers go to those extremes. Seems to me that cavers facing big drops and ascents, say 400 to 800 feet, get a payoff from the increased efficiency, but in trees, where 150 feet is a darn long SRT ascent, the preference might be for a somewhat simpler system. Personally, I have tried Mitchell and found that even it is more complex than I want to mess with...that biner or roller box on the chest harness is a hassle. My choice is the Texas system using two handled ascenders and seperate foot-loops. A straight-forward sit-stand setup...one of the least expensive... easy to pack, mount, change-over, and dismount. For me this has satisfactory performance. Try this one out and I doubt you would ever footlock over 50 feet again. As an instructor, I also appreciate the relative ease with which I can fit this system to students. I reckon you are familiar with Smith and Padgett's book, ON ROPE. Best source I know of for this subject.

 

[Burnham]

Something we havn't mentioned about climbing above your TIP...one is exposed to fall factors of over 1 in these situations. Use of lifelines with dynamic characteristics will give cushion to your anchor, protection points, gear, and body in the event of a breakout / fall. Arbo ropes may not be "stretchy" enough to provide this. Ascender lines certainly are not. My "working rope"/ long lanyard is 11mm dynamic kernmantle rated for about 6% elongation under working load, and about 20 % at breaking limit. I recognize that true free-fall is pretty unlikely to occur in the crowns of trees, but it can't hurt to think about this...what do y'all think?

 

[ramanujan]

Burnham could you explain the Mitchell system? I don't often get into very tall trees on the job but on the weekends I like to.

Valid point about the dynamic rope for climbing above TIP. Not only does it cushion the blow for the climber in the event of a fall but also lessens the force on the TIP, important if you are in small wood.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

For a good description of the rope climbing systems you MUST have ON ROPE by Smith and Padgett. You can glean some information from:

http://onrope1.com/index.html


If you want to see what your tax dollars produce, get a free copy of the National Tree Climbing Guide from:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/dorena/climb/index.shtml

Tom

 

[heartland]

Originally posted by Burnham
I use a seperate safety line for this, about 35 feet long, to keep my main lifeline out of the pitchiest part of the tree.... You can visualize this working rope as a really long adjustable lanyard. Anchor your working rope around the stem at about 5 inches diameter, with a prusik loop on it clipped to your harness. Advance the prusik about 3 feet, unclip your lanyard, climb up the limbs 3 feet, clip in lanyard, basket hitch a sling around the stem, put your working line in the biner on the sling, advance your prusik 3 more feet, unclip lanyard, ascend again, repeat as needed.

Burn - I want to make sure I'm following you here. When you referred to the "working rope", is that your main lifeline? If so, are you anchoring it around the stem such that it becomes a static system vs. dynamic?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Has anyone ever used self equalizing anchors?

They're used in rock climbing and seem to have a place in trees. I used one when I pulled over a spreading crown tree that didn't have a strong enough center leader to anchor the pull line.

Google SEA if you're not familiar

Tom

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Tom is this SEA for supporting an SRT? Or SEA supports laced with DdRT to a climber?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

There are many different SEA setups. Some setups will keep the load centered and equalized in only one direction. There are others that allow the anchor point to float and move.

The name is actually a misnomer but that is what they're called and its too late to try to change the name.

In most cases, if one anchor blows the whole thing collapses or shifts the load to the other anchors. This can cause a downward cascade event. The way to build an SEA is to spread the load equally to the anchors and not overload.

Jerry Beranek illustrates an interesting technique for working small stuff on page 73 of "Fundamentals..."

It seems to me that using a SEA would move the TIP higher into the tree. If I were going to work above my TIP I would use a fall arrest harness with a shoulder or chest connection. I'd also add a Screamer to my anchors. Another option would be to use some kind of sliding friction hitch to take some of the impact.

I haven's spent a lot of time working above my TIP. The things that I've figured out haven't been tweaked like I would like to in order to become proficient. That might change if I get two of the jobs that I bid today. These two jobs will require some work out in the tips of lateral crowns. I think that I will have my DdRT system tied into a bomb proof TIP. Then, when I move into the tips I'll be using a variation on a self-belayed SRT system, probably using an I'd. I'll set up quickdraws or redirects and then clip my SRT line in as I go. These jobs will blend arbo climbing with the techniques that big wall aid climbers use. I might even have my front point crampon boots fabricated by then.

Tom

 

[Burnham]

Heartland--The working rope is functioning as my main lifeline. It is anchored aroung the stem, so it becomes a static system. Note that I am using a dynamic rope (rope description) in this static system (system description)...that can sound confusing, I know. I move my attachment to it along as I ascend via use of a prusik loop clipped to my harness's center rig point. I remove protection points and move the prusik down as I descend, back to the anchor point. In this type of tree there is only one route up and down anyway!

Ramanujan--I will give you just the very basic idea on what the Michell setup consists of, but I think you should follow Tom's advice and get ON ROPE to really grasp the subject. The general idea is to use one footloop sling on each foot, each attached to a seperate handled ascender. The footloop slings are different lengths to allow one to be mounted above the other on the ascent line. A third ascender is attached to your sit harness and is mounted on the ascent line between the other two and is usually a handle-less model, like a croll or shunt, that will self advance as you climb. The ascent line is run through a roller box or biner attached to a chest harness, to keep the climber upright. For back-up to prevent being heel hung in case of ascender/sling failure, at least one of the handled ascenders needs a sling to the sit harness. Sling lengths are critical, down to the half-inches, to get this system working right. Use one hand on each handled ascender, lift the ascender as you lift that foot, walk up the rope!

 

[Burnham]

One thing to watch out for when using the self-belay system I previously described is to clearly visualize which direction you would load the system if you fell. If you use a prusic loop, which will function in either direction, no problem. But if you decide to use a mechanical device, like Tom D. has talked about, or an advanced hitch, realize that you will need to mount and advance it "upside-down", so that in a falll, when you end up below a protection point the device or hitch is oriented correctly to work. Moving sideways in the crown, this is pretty easy to see, but going straight up over the TIP, you can get confused, especially if you are used to always being below the TIP.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

I thought this wight be a good thread to bring back up. I have been doing some of this " above your TIP climbing lately ". I find this to be one one the more exhilarating types of climbing!

 

[Burnham]

So how are you going about it, Rich? And how much above your TIP are you getting? I think this is some of the funnest climbing, too.

 

[rbtree]

Rich is prolly doing what I tell my climbers to do:

"Higher, higher, there fella, you gotta get up to 140 feet"

Of course the tree is only 120!!!

 

[FBerkel]

Tom,

I've used DdrT in the situation you describe, with successive double redirect pulleys running out the horizontal top. Either way, it resembles the fishing pole rigging technique in that a fall would cause some component of the force to load the limb axially as well as vertically, whereas simply using a lanyard only loads the limb straight down. I also look at it as similar to placing protection leading a rock traverse.