Advanced log splitter plumbing question

[SemperFiSawguy]

If it was me I would drain the oil down and go back to the tank and put a 1.5" T in there. Bush down to run two 1" hoses one from the control valves and one from the dump valve. If you don't want to buy another filter housing then don't and dump the dump valve oil right back to the tank. I have done it both ways over the years. If splitters are kept inside the oil stays clean in them.

Im going to do this, i ordered a stainless 1.5 inch barb T to plumb a 1.5 inch dump return for the dump valve alone. Waiting on a couple parts too streamline that return and make that a little better as well. Hopefully that gets it licked.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Should i take the time and weld in an additional bung on the tank specifically for the dump valve? Or is the 1.5 ID hose T idea fine?

 

[sean donato]

I would. Just me though.

 

[rancher2]

Should i take the time and weld in an additional bung on the tank specifically for the dump valve? Or is the 1.5 ID hose T idea fine?

I have built a fair amount of hyd systems over the years and the least amount of restriction's you have the better and cooler the system will operate. Building this from the beginning we would have put at least one more fitting in the cylinder and would have added at least one more fitting in the tank. Where you are at now I would probably just add the T and be done with it. You are doing what we call engineering on the fly. Sometimes it works better than other times. I have done more than my share of it over the years.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

I have built a fair amount of hyd systems over the years and the least amount of restriction's you have the better and cooler the system will operate. Building this from the beginning we would have put at least one more fitting in the cylinder and would have added at least one more fitting in the tank. Where you are at now I would probably just add the T and be done with it. You are doing what we call engineering on the fly. Sometimes it works better than other times. I have done more than my share of it over the years.

I have built a fair amount of hyd systems over the years and the least amount of restriction's you have the better and cooler the system will operate. Building this from the beginning we would have put at least one more fitting in the cylinder and would have added at least one more fitting in the tank. Where you are at now I would probably just add the T and be done with it. You are doing what we call engineering on the fly. Sometimes it works better than other times. I have done more than my share of it over the years.

I did weld an additional port onto the base of the cylinder, the cycle time is still disappointing the math works out to a 7 second cycle time before the dump valve.

Before the dump valve it was 8.3 at op temp
Now its 8.8, 8.9 seconds.

Which doesnt make a whole lot of sense, hose routing is short and properly sized other then that 3/4 T. Which i doubt could cause ALL of that could it?

 

[sean donato]

You're really not that far out of the valves flow rating, so your cycle time may just be about ad good as it's going to get.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

You're really not that far out of the valves flow rating, so your cycle time may just be about ad good as it's going to get.

Is that true though if the over all time got reduced by the addition of the dump valve?

Went from 8.3 to 9.3 depending on how many shims i add too the check valve.

 

[sean donato]

Flow will always take the path of least resistance, but you're still gonna hit a limit at some point. (Flow of pump coming into the rod side for example.) You should have seen a pretty substantial gain not just ~1 second off retraction, imo. I can't remember what gpm your pump is, but seeing as you've sized everything pretty well the dump valve may not make a big difference in your set up.

 

[rancher2]

Its like most things on paper is one way and the way it works is another. Back before farm tractors had the big GPM pumps that they do today for the planters. We added on extra pumps on the tractors or on the planters and ran them with PTO or the engine. We finally had to buy a flow meter we could put inline to see what the flow was vs what the paper said. Your to the point with out putting a flow meter in at different points in the system your real don't know what some of these components are really doing. Flow meters aren't cheap. You need many gauges at varies locations to make sure your dump is working the way it should and flowing when you want it to be. A two stage 28 GPM pump with off the shelf valves with mostly 3/4 pipe fittings are only doing to do so much. Years ago I did some repairs on a splitter a heavy equipment mechanic had built and then passed away. This thing had a six inch cylinder with a four inch rod. It was ran by a hundred horse diesel Cat engine with a eighty GPM single stage pump. Three inch suction lines and two inch pressure lines with valve stack off a Cat loader. Two 2 inch pressure lines on both ends of the cylinder. Big tank and a big cooler. Now that splitter would fly. Just the hoses alone probably cost more than most folks splitter do. If you do a lot of straight grain wood and really want fast? Then its time to built a heavy duty Kinetic splitter and you will have fast. Back when I sold wood and we had a lot of ash around I built a big Kinetic splitter using two flywheels off 855 Cummins engines. You can't beat Kinetic splitter for speed. When the ash tree supply dried up and we quiet selling wood I sold it.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Im not after blistering speed per sey but having gotten slower post valve seems goofy to me. Im going back to the srawing board on my return set up. It is a 22gpm pump. Id love to slap a two stage 28gpm pump on it but everyone says you cant do that with only a honda GX390 and id rather not change out the engine chasing a second or two. I figured sub 8 seconds was doable with a dump valve and a 22gpm pump with a 4.5 inch cylinder. All of my valving and plumbing should be good for 25gpm or higher. My bottle neck now it seems is the return circuit and that mess of Ts. Im going to mess around with some different options to come up with something better. I ordered the sun Cartridge and body posted above to try that out to see if that works better or not as well.

 

[rancher2]

Normally when we have used the Honda GX390 engine or the HF predator version we have used the 22GPM two stage like you did. I have always ran the 28 GPM two stage on a two cylinder 16 HP and up. Have BS vanguard 16 HP take has pulled a 28 GPM two stage for twenty plus years and handles it nice. I would clean up that smaller T's set up you have and that should help some. Install some low pressure gauges on the dump valve circuit so you can see if the dump valve is working like you want to. You should be able after running it a while to feel is the return line to the tank out of the dump valve is working. That's why I like flow meters then you know if things are working right.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Im gonna start with alleviating the mess of Ts and then go from there with results. Im wondering if 1 inch pump to valve and working lines would be of any additional benefit, im thinking not since the work ports are only 3/4. You folks are definitely right though, the math works out too 7 seconds on paper but thats no where near reality. I have some work to do so this is dialed in. Im sure ill be happy with it eventually.

I dont want to bump up in HP or GPM simply due to fuel consumption, jumping from a 13hp single cylinder to an 18hp vtwin or larger almost doubles fuel consumption for arguably not that much of a gain since my autocycle can only rate 25gpm anyway.
Why doesnt anyone build a 25gpm 2 stage pump you can run with a GX390!? Thatd sell like hot cakes even at 90% efficiency in that 22-23gpm mark at 3600 rpm. Id pay big bucks for somethint like that.

 

[rancher2]

Some day I may just try a 28 GPM two stage on a 13 HP single cylinder and see if it will handle it. Probably will for the most part. Quick story. Few years back buddy showed up with a friend and a old Speco splitter with a 5 HP Briggs with a 11 GPM two stage pump. They have a OWB and had spit 20 cord a year for fifteen years on that splitter and that Briggs was so wore out it took half of can of starting fluid to get it going in the summer. I put a HF predator 13 HP with a 22GPM pump on it and they thought they had died and went to heaven. I wouldn't up size any of your 3/4 pressure lines. I know where a 28 GPM two stage pump is running with 1/2 lines to the cylinder because the owner didn't want to weld new fitting into the cylinder and the valve has 3/4 working ports. Its been that way probably twenty years.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Some day I may just try a 28 GPM two stage on a 13 HP single cylinder and see if it will handle it. Probably will for the most part. Quick story. Few years back buddy showed up with a friend and a old Speco splitter with a 5 HP Briggs with a 11 GPM two stage pump. They have a OWB and had spit 20 cord a year for fifteen years on that splitter and that Briggs was so wore out it took half of can of starting fluid to get it going in the summer. I put a HF predator 13 HP with a 22GPM pump on it and they thought they had died and went to heaven. I wouldn't up size any of your 3/4 pressure lines. I know where a 28 GPM two stage pump is running with 1/2 lines to the cylinder because the owner didn't want to weld new fitting into the cylinder and the valve has 3/4 working ports. Its been that way probably twenty years.

I may be a guinea pig for this. Im not afraid to burn up the $3-500 on it for science!! Only question is which 28gpm 2 stage should i try..? Efficiency math only puts them at like 25-26gpm at 3600?

What say you folks? Anyone else ever tried just slapping one on there just too see?

 

[sean donato]

I agree with rancher, no need to have lines larger then the smallest port. 3/4" all the way is as good as it gets. Guages are a great way to tell what the system is doing, flow meter would be a gold standard. My next splitter build will have a 28 gpm pump with a 20hp kohler. (Already have both here and about 70% of the materials) not so much worried about fuel consumption over my current 9hp/16gpm set up. Multi way wedge will make up for that.
You can physically run 28gpm through a 25 gpm valve, happens every day. The pressure differential just increases across the working ports of the valve. This creates heat, but it would be minimal given pump efficiency. So not a big deal in a well thought out system.

 

[sean donato]

I may be a guinea pig for this. Im not afraid to burn up the $3-500 on it for science!! Only question is which 28gpm 2 stage should i try..? Efficiency math only puts them at like 25-26gpm at 3600?

What say you folks? Anyone else ever tried just slapping one on there just too see?

Every calculator I've ever used for a 3k psi system says ~16 hp minimum, but if you figure a 7gpm @3k psi (about what the high pressure side should be) you need a bit over 12hp.

 

[rancher2]

I may be a guinea pig for this. Im not afraid to burn up the $3-500 on it for science!! Only question is which 28gpm 2 stage should i try..? Efficiency math only puts them at like 25-26gpm at 3600?

What say you folks? Anyone else ever tried just slapping one on there just too see?

The only splitter pumps I have ever installed have come from Surplus center in Lincoln Ne. They are some what local to me and have treated me well over the years. Cast pumps. I only have had one issue with one pump and that was a front seal starting leaking about a year after the pump was installed they replaced the pump no questions asked. These new aluminum pumps coming on these new splitters don't know how they are holding up. Time will tell. If you don't mine the cost I would throw a 28 GPM pump on that splitter. Its easy to spend some ones else money. LOL I would do it and not think twice. Always can sell your pump or in my case some will come along that needs a upgrade from a 11 or 16 GPM pump.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

The only splitter pumps I have ever installed have come from Surplus center in Lincoln Ne. They are some what local to me and have treated me well over the years. Cast pumps. I only have had one issue with one pump and that was a front seal starting leaking about a year after the pump was installed they replaced the pump no questions asked. These new aluminum pumps coming on these new splitters don't know how they are holding up. Time will tell. If you don't mine the cost I would throw a 28 GPM pump on that splitter. Its easy to spend some ones else money. LOL I would do it and not think twice. Always can sell your pump or in my case some will come along that needs a upgrade from a 11 or 16 GPM pump.

I am curious too try it, baileys has a cast iron pump for less then $350 which is extremly tempting with a 93% efficiency rating. I KNOW i can tweak the honda to get more torque out of it with some exhaust and intake mods borrowing from the go cart guys knowledge base.. is it worth it? No. Could it be fun anyway? Definitely. its only money! They print more everyday.. plus im only 25 so having this caliber of splitter built now puts me way far ahead for years too come.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

I am curious too try it, baileys has a cast iron pump for less then $350 which is extremly tempting with a 93% efficiency rating. I KNOW i can tweak the honda to get more torque out of it with some exhaust and intake mods borrowing from the go cart guys knowledge base.. is it worth it? No. Could it be fun anyway? Definitely. its only money! They print more everyday.. plus im only 25 so having this caliber of splitter built now puts me way far ahead for years too come.

If anyone needs a pilot too open check valve let me know ill have one for sale for peanuts after i figure out which one i like better.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Every calculator I've ever used for a 3k psi system says ~16 hp minimum, but if you figure a 7gpm @3k psi (about what the high pressure side should be) you need a bit over 12hp.

Your really makij me wanna try it.