Sorry, can’t resist replying. I would never fell a tree like that other than its direction of lean only. It’s a hazard tree. Roping and/or wedging you’re asking for the top to come out on your head. Top will still probably break off.
Advice on falling dead Pine
- Thread starter crammit442
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Been there and done those, what to look out for is the widow makers from above. Any movement and the dead limbs or top will pop off first you don't want to be under there when that happens. We tie a pull rope as high as we can reach and put just a little pressure on the rope just to hold the tree, cut the base about 1/2 way through and then everybody get out of the way and give it a good pull. A lot of times the top will pop off as it comes down. Depending on how big the tree is will determine if a front cut is needed. When preparing fire lanes we always removed the dead torch trees that could pose a danger. We did a lot of them with a four wheeler and some times a block & tackle or skid steer. The main thing is don't be under the tree when it moves, this is not felling a tree this is pulling it down with no one in a danger zone. Whatever you do don't beat on it with an axe, it may sound solid at the butt but that's not the problem it's the widow makers at the top; The longer you wait the more danger. It's best the cut them when you see the pine needles turn brown and still on the tree.Sometimes it's best to just let it fall natural, I've seen big trees just melt away from the top down but that was where there was no danger to anyone where it was. Once the bark starts slipping like those you can bet the top is ready to pop out.
crammit442
ArboristSite Lurker
Wow! Two consecutive replies from Alabama
. I've done a lot of (rock) climbing at Sand Rock and Griffin Falls up past Gadsden. No need to apologize for giving your thoughts. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm careful and do lots of thinking before I do things, but I know there are a number of of factors with trees that aren't necessarily instinctual. The tree is at Lake Martin near Central/Eclectic. I'm taking in everything said here and appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. Thanks again!
Charles
P.S. If either of you run out of fun things to do and want to come supervise, don't hesitate to PM me.
. I've done a lot of (rock) climbing at Sand Rock and Griffin Falls up past Gadsden. No need to apologize for giving your thoughts. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm careful and do lots of thinking before I do things, but I know there are a number of of factors with trees that aren't necessarily instinctual. The tree is at Lake Martin near Central/Eclectic. I'm taking in everything said here and appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. Thanks again!Charles
P.S. If either of you run out of fun things to do and want to come supervise, don't hesitate to PM me
.
Many things can affect the Pine, lighting, Bark Beetles and such. What it looks like you have is called the Lps Beetle, Ips is a genus of beetles in the family Curculionidae, the true weevils. They are bark beetles, members of the subfamily Scolytinae.
They kill the tree from the top down in a slow process which may take months. You will see one tree start dying from the top then maybe another some distance will start dying. It may be a random affect with trees here and there or a plot where all the trees die. They are not like an infestation of Southern Pine Beetles where the whole tree will fire up in a short time.
They can live in your forest for years killing a number of trees each year but rest assure they are just as destructive as the Southern Pine Beetle because they seem to pick the best and before you get alarmed they may kill 30% of your pine forest a little each year.
Anytime you see a tree start to die from the top you should cut it down and burn it all. It's dead you can bet because it is already infested and has eggs already laid in the bark. This action will slow down an infestation.
If you are seeing only Short Leaf Pines it's probably short leaf disease (Little Leaf). Littleleaf disease develops when P. cinnamomi, a fungal-like organism (specifically, a water mold), infects the fine roots of susceptible southern pine trees. Symptoms of the disease can be misdiagnosed as nutritional deficiencies or may appear as the after effects of bark beetle attack. Well drained soil shouldn't pose a problem with short leaf disease. The only way to know is inspect the bark for galleries for eggs or clear signs of infestation if you suspect Bark Beetles.
They kill the tree from the top down in a slow process which may take months. You will see one tree start dying from the top then maybe another some distance will start dying. It may be a random affect with trees here and there or a plot where all the trees die. They are not like an infestation of Southern Pine Beetles where the whole tree will fire up in a short time.
They can live in your forest for years killing a number of trees each year but rest assure they are just as destructive as the Southern Pine Beetle because they seem to pick the best and before you get alarmed they may kill 30% of your pine forest a little each year.
Anytime you see a tree start to die from the top you should cut it down and burn it all. It's dead you can bet because it is already infested and has eggs already laid in the bark. This action will slow down an infestation.
If you are seeing only Short Leaf Pines it's probably short leaf disease (Little Leaf). Littleleaf disease develops when P. cinnamomi, a fungal-like organism (specifically, a water mold), infects the fine roots of susceptible southern pine trees. Symptoms of the disease can be misdiagnosed as nutritional deficiencies or may appear as the after effects of bark beetle attack. Well drained soil shouldn't pose a problem with short leaf disease. The only way to know is inspect the bark for galleries for eggs or clear signs of infestation if you suspect Bark Beetles.
crammit442
ArboristSite Lurker
Thanks for the information. It definitely looks like it died from the top down. Once it's on the ground will I be able to see the damage confirming the cause? I didn't see anything that looked like a lightning strike. Thanks again.
You should be able to look at the bark and tree and see the feeding tunnels in the phloem/cambium layer. It will still be evident even if the bark that has slipped. Remember, once the tree is dead the bugs will move on to greener pastures and to idenify what bug it is you need to find active bug infestation in a tree that hasn't died completely. You can look for fine sawdust at the base of the tree, that's what you find most with Southern Pine Beetles, Lps Beetles are often mistaken for the southern pine bark beetle because their appearance and damage are similar. Their gallery patterns tend to be more parallel to each other.
Even if the tree shows no signs of bark beetles one can look at the Bark and if you see little holes like it has been shot with a load of shot from a shotgun, if so it's been infested with a form of Bark Beetle. If the tree is in good condition and not stressed it may push the beetle out with the sap. When you see Sap from many holes pushing out you know the tree has been attacked but the tree may have won the battle. That's the reason Long Leaf Pine is more durable and resistant to Bark Beetles because of the sap content and abundance they produce.
At my age managing a forest for a new generation to cut is out of the question so when I cut planted loblolly Pine stands on my land I replace them with Long Leaf, this way I can manage the land for wildlife better and still grow productive saw timber for the next generation after me. You can burn Long leaf much sooner and reduce fuel load and provide a better habitat for wildlife at the same time and Long leaf love fire.
crammit442
ArboristSite Lurker
I looked up the Lps Beetle after your last post. There sure are LOTS of things going on with trees that would take years to learn. After a lot of thinking about this tree, I've pretty much decided to tell the family to call a real arborist, especially since the same thing may be happening to other trees in the area. I actually feel relatively confident that I could safely get the tree down and I probably would if it was in an open area and could be felled in any direction. We have a kitty to pay for things like this and there's no shame in walking away. I really appreciate all the input from you and everyone else about this. I've learned a lot in the last week here. I really enjoy my saw and cutting, but I think the risks outweigh the money saved. I'll update this thread when I have any new information. Thanks again!
Charles
Jkstihl
Chainsaws make me ***.
Just read the whole thread and realized your in eclectic, little far for me. But good luck.
crammit442
ArboristSite Lurker
I know what you mean. I jump in a couple of ski tournaments in Huntsville every summer and the ride home always seems to take forever. If you get bored or curiosity gets the better of you please let me know.
crammit442
ArboristSite Lurker
Well, the tree was dead enough that with all the family and kids up there, it had to come down before someone got drilled in the head from falling pieces. I decided to use a come along to gently tension it. I got an average size Humboldt in the face and then went to the back cut. The ideal landing was about a foot to the right of the 4 x 4 in the pictures. It was probably the only completely clear corridor to fall without damage to other trees. I palmed a couple of wedges in as soon as I got the back cut started and lightly tapped them in as the cut got deeper. I cut as far as I thought safe and turned the saw off. A few taps on the wedges and it slowly started to go and to my surprise, landed EXACTLY where I'd hoped it would. The Humboldt worked well and pushed it forward off the stump just before the top landed so it was a soft landing. You can really tell how dead it is by the picture with the guy standing with a 7 foot piece over his shoulder. It only weighed 100 lbs or so. Thanks again for all the suggestions and cautions. Im not sure if I was lucky or good, but everything said here was echoing in my head as we set everything up yesterday. I'll try to get some close ups of the tree to see if anyone can identify the exact beetle/infestation that killed it. It measured 84'. Thanks again!
Charles
Charles
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The Lorax
ArboristSite Guru
Looks like there was still some half reasonable hinge wood there, seems to have pulled some good sized fibres out
Congrats on the successful falling. Always a good feeling when things come off well.
Congrats on the successful falling. Always a good feeling when things come off well.
crammit442
ArboristSite Lurker
I couldn't believe there was actually still any hinge wood. The face cut was like wet cardboard. The first several inches in the back cut were really soft also, but felt healthier as I got deeper. My back cut had a bit of a slope, but was still above the face. I normally cut downed trees up rather than cutting trees down, so it was cool to see things go pretty close to as planned. Thanks again.
Charles
