treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
Brian, would any liability fall on you if something had happened today? Or would it strictly be your boss for the day who took the blame?
Allowing pedestrians in the work area
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Stumper
One Man Band
Sorry Bro. Now I understand the 
in the PM you sent. I can understand allowing the UPS guy access but ....not hollering for you to hold up until things were clear?
One of the great frustrations of life= poopid steeple.
in the PM you sent. I can understand allowing the UPS guy access but ....not hollering for you to hold up until things were clear? One of the great frustrations of life= poopid steeple.
Wow, must be something in the air with Mars looming so close...........
Topping out an oak an hour ago onto a pile on a dead end street (but still ~10 houses before end); guy had 1 man blocking just inlet until i stammered until every thing from both sides was 100%, 5th drop into open road, last pice left for protection. i had faced and was taking out some material on the side readyt to throw through backcut in a moment and a jr. high kid goes walking across road from me. i stopped in full sun and yelled at guys in shade, the one on the end the kid came from screamed back shrugging shoulders he din't leave n'carz through....had to explain all traffic; pedestrian, skateboards, tricycles, strollers, pets, remote control dune buggys, balls with kids chasing them etc. as well as cars...................total control........ As i try to throw this where you have to move it the least; in the shade as much as possible without ; and anyfar shots of the long stuff i set up a pulley and line for dump to pull them right where guy wants, without getting killed or having sun stroke myself..... can i come down and git ya guys a drink or back rub too???????; and block all traffic while i cut myself?
Topping out an oak an hour ago onto a pile on a dead end street (but still ~10 houses before end); guy had 1 man blocking just inlet until i stammered until every thing from both sides was 100%, 5th drop into open road, last pice left for protection. i had faced and was taking out some material on the side readyt to throw through backcut in a moment and a jr. high kid goes walking across road from me. i stopped in full sun and yelled at guys in shade, the one on the end the kid came from screamed back shrugging shoulders he din't leave n'carz through....had to explain all traffic; pedestrian, skateboards, tricycles, strollers, pets, remote control dune buggys, balls with kids chasing them etc. as well as cars...................total control........ As i try to throw this where you have to move it the least; in the shade as much as possible without ; and anyfar shots of the long stuff i set up a pulley and line for dump to pull them right where guy wants, without getting killed or having sun stroke myself..... can i come down and git ya guys a drink or back rub too???????; and block all traffic while i cut myself?
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SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
What you don’t know that ups waits for no one?
What precautions did you have in place Rocky? Cones? Their worthless, I like those red velvet cattle hearders you see in the banks. Most dopes will follow those velvet ropes.
What precautions did you have in place Rocky? Cones? Their worthless, I like those red velvet cattle hearders you see in the banks. Most dopes will follow those velvet ropes.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you don't go through a pre climb inspection and set up clearly marked drop zones, you lost control when you left the ground. You should know that UPS in means UPS out. After he came under you, you should have stopped and set up a drop zone contract with your ground crew.
Having the situation escalate into a shouting, cursing match wasn't necessary. Why not just slow down and get some ropes or throwlines strung to make a DZ?
Working as a sub means deferring some authority to the prime. I know that you feel responsible and want to have a safe day. Let the prime take responsibility, you don't have to go to "Red" every time there is a problem.
Tom
Having the situation escalate into a shouting, cursing match wasn't necessary. Why not just slow down and get some ropes or throwlines strung to make a DZ?
Working as a sub means deferring some authority to the prime. I know that you feel responsible and want to have a safe day. Let the prime take responsibility, you don't have to go to "Red" every time there is a problem.
Tom
Crispin Hoar
ArboristSite Member
I work in a college town. All those educated idiots that will walk around ten pylons and under a running chainsaw and branches comming down. I had a welder make me some 3/8 steel rods 3ft tall with a bar to stomp them into the ground and a curl at the top. I run a yellow line fron one placed at the curb to the other by the house. On the second one I use a prusic so that we can adjust the line. Ya know what! The educated idiots now run into the yellow line, stop and look at what is going on and cross the street. People used to yell back at me when I yelled at them about comming under me. (Even when they just walked around ten pylons) Now I don't have people walking under me. The posts cost about $5 each. I now have 4 sets for doing work at intersections
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
When working over walk or street I allways have a person keeping an eye out with] me.
One thing you learn real fast is that you cannot trust anyone completely. No matter what, you will hold some fault (even if only in your own mind).
establish good command and responce and use it religously. When i start the saw, I tell people what I'm doing
"Taking a notch!"
"Ready?"
"Stand Clear!"
Then i don't make the back cut, or push a chunk till i hear the "ALL CLEAR" from the crews responsible person. Of course when working in the middle of a yard with a crew I've worked with a while things can slack a bit.
There have been a number of occasions were I've done the command and responce and cut without looking and had an inexperianced groundie walk in after the cut and a big peice is in free fall
THe latest Z 133 standards revision has a part about people needing to request permission to enter the work zone. WHat we do here is to have the groundies call out "coming under you!" and not do it till the climber acknowledges.
As for a nonworker "violating" the work area. We will call "STOP!" everyone echos this, everyone stops. The individual usually gets embarassed when all these people in ahrdhats stop and look at them with that "Were you birn stupid, or did you have to work up to it?" look.
I fear if a sub had a struck by injuty/death then the courts would have to aportion the blame.
One thing you learn real fast is that you cannot trust anyone completely. No matter what, you will hold some fault (even if only in your own mind).
establish good command and responce and use it religously. When i start the saw, I tell people what I'm doing
"Taking a notch!"
"Ready?"
"Stand Clear!"
Then i don't make the back cut, or push a chunk till i hear the "ALL CLEAR" from the crews responsible person. Of course when working in the middle of a yard with a crew I've worked with a while things can slack a bit.
There have been a number of occasions were I've done the command and responce and cut without looking and had an inexperianced groundie walk in after the cut and a big peice is in free fall
THe latest Z 133 standards revision has a part about people needing to request permission to enter the work zone. WHat we do here is to have the groundies call out "coming under you!" and not do it till the climber acknowledges.
As for a nonworker "violating" the work area. We will call "STOP!" everyone echos this, everyone stops. The individual usually gets embarassed when all these people in ahrdhats stop and look at them with that "Were you birn stupid, or did you have to work up to it?" look.
I fear if a sub had a struck by injuty/death then the courts would have to aportion the blame.
i'm fairly verb-all.........and was yelling "completely , totally clear-freefalling large" (etc.) a lot at both jobs today and i realize i have the crows nest, most perspective, responsibility etc.. The guys in road were standing under other trees, far back, barely able to make out sillouhette of one that allowed 'breech of area'; really like eye contact, but that might have put him were an overhead branch on other tree coulda shook something loose etc. i din't catch the kid outta the corner of my eye, till he was coming out from under that other tree (placing him in kill zone in 2 seconds, perhaps less); really he would have been clear; but not with much safety factor. Really it was too hot after a long day and ground pilo-trons weren't taking full aim and focus (IMLHO). Even when stuff in road, they where more concerned with cutting up cluttered side, rather than opening thinly covered lane/side for possible traffic ASAP.
i catch about all of what's going on from perch, but failsafe is a 2 part process (at least) like tying in 2x while cutting. i was laughing/ mocking as i made my point (well maybe not first 4 horrifried seconds......), and it was well clear i was saving them mucho werk, by where i put things, allowed clearing instead of burying between cuts, dragging long pieces into place with truck redirected by block to bulk out clearing quickly, while only one with no place to hide from sun, and pitching what i could of <20 pieces towards shady part of pile.....
The tree finally comes down this time, 3rd time there this year from over 1 ton wood drop/failure. Only this time it only blocked the road till city came by and cleared it this mourn; not messed up the roof, or crushed the red convertable like 2x before (owner was on vacation both times!).........
Pic shows convertible and previous wound (from first visit this year).....
i catch about all of what's going on from perch, but failsafe is a 2 part process (at least) like tying in 2x while cutting. i was laughing/ mocking as i made my point (well maybe not first 4 horrifried seconds......), and it was well clear i was saving them mucho werk, by where i put things, allowed clearing instead of burying between cuts, dragging long pieces into place with truck redirected by block to bulk out clearing quickly, while only one with no place to hide from sun, and pitching what i could of <20 pieces towards shady part of pile.....
The tree finally comes down this time, 3rd time there this year from over 1 ton wood drop/failure. Only this time it only blocked the road till city came by and cleared it this mourn; not messed up the roof, or crushed the red convertable like 2x before (owner was on vacation both times!).........
Pic shows convertible and previous wound (from first visit this year).....
NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Verbal commands and responses should be nothing new. Sound your stand clear, and make sure everyone acknowledges the all clear was heard, and IS in fact "all clear".
When taking control of an aircraft, it goes go like...
"I have the controls"
"YOU have the controls"
"I have the controls"
"You have the controls, acknowledged"
May sound a bit redundant, but the idea is still the same- making sure everyone is on the same page as to what is going on.
I think you may have over-reacted a little bit in your attitude, but you were absolutely correct in not continuing unless/until a safe work zone was established. If not legally, you certainly would have felt morally responsible had something happened. Always better safe than sorry.
When taking control of an aircraft, it goes go like...
"I have the controls"
"YOU have the controls"
"I have the controls"
"You have the controls, acknowledged"
May sound a bit redundant, but the idea is still the same- making sure everyone is on the same page as to what is going on.
I think you may have over-reacted a little bit in your attitude, but you were absolutely correct in not continuing unless/until a safe work zone was established. If not legally, you certainly would have felt morally responsible had something happened. Always better safe than sorry.
UPS
You only lose the customer if you don't go back with a lighter attitude and explain the dangerous situation you were working in with UPS walking through. You have not lost the customer yet, you can recover this. It's hot, you're sweaty,want to get done and do not want to explain to the police why there is a dead UPS guy under a limb you just dropped. The customer would understand the insurance costs of that, they go after deep pockets. Your rates would go up and so would his if you got hauled into court for a dead or injured UPS guy. OSHA would want to do a report after inspection of site. All the yelling and cursing would seem minor compaired to the nightmare of paper that an accident would bring. Customers can understand the stress you work with. Your always going to have idiots out there, if you are in this buisness you want to keep good customers and limit the idiots you run into. Did you tell UPS their man crossed your line? He should know better, even UPS guys have safety meeting.
You only lose the customer if you don't go back with a lighter attitude and explain the dangerous situation you were working in with UPS walking through. You have not lost the customer yet, you can recover this. It's hot, you're sweaty,want to get done and do not want to explain to the police why there is a dead UPS guy under a limb you just dropped. The customer would understand the insurance costs of that, they go after deep pockets. Your rates would go up and so would his if you got hauled into court for a dead or injured UPS guy. OSHA would want to do a report after inspection of site. All the yelling and cursing would seem minor compaired to the nightmare of paper that an accident would bring. Customers can understand the stress you work with. Your always going to have idiots out there, if you are in this buisness you want to keep good customers and limit the idiots you run into. Did you tell UPS their man crossed your line? He should know better, even UPS guys have safety meeting.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Decisions made in the heat of the moment usually aren't the best ones. A cooling off period(24 hrs?) will allow everyone involved to hopefully see things in a more rational, objective light.
Who knows? Maybe the dillhole will see the error of his ways after reflecting on the issue.
The tree services I work with need me a whole lot more than I need them. I'm sure its the same with you also, Brian. Top notch Climbers don't grow on trees. Ha!
Who knows? Maybe the dillhole will see the error of his ways after reflecting on the issue.
The tree services I work with need me a whole lot more than I need them. I'm sure its the same with you also, Brian. Top notch Climbers don't grow on trees. Ha!
Kneejerk Bombas
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Insiteful statements, Tom.
There are going to be a lot of times when a climber has to work just outside a doorway. It's important to find out who's home and let them know they can't use the door for a while. A ladder blocking the door will remind them, if they forget.
At a business there needs to be an alternate entance set up, and the area barricaded.
If the doorway must be used during the time you are lowering limbs, a person needs to be dedicated to watching for pedestrians.
It may have been better to come down and calmly discuss the problem, find a solution and then go back up, but this is Brian were talking about.
No, in this case he can't just defer responsbility to the prime. This is a matter of safety. As a sub he would be at fault, it's not like he's an employee.
If I am a home builder and I hire an electrical sub, then tell him to do substandard work, he won't, his butt would be on the line. The same holds true here.
The job must be done safely, or not at all.
Kneejerk Bombas
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I'd like to add that a climber needs to be able to look at a situation and say, "I'm not comfortable with this." He needs to be prepared to walk away from the situation if necessary, wether he is a sub or an employee.
In this case Brian is at least partly at fault, the problem should have been resolved before he went up, as Tom mentioned.
In this case Brian is at least partly at fault, the problem should have been resolved before he went up, as Tom mentioned.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Which is why I prefer to have only one person give the ALL CLEAR! Especially in situations where I have not worked with the crew, or where I do not have a good full view of the ground.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Originally posted by MasterBlaster
The tree services I work with need me a whole lot more than I need them. I'm sure its the same with you also, Brian.
** They're tree companies with no staff to climb trees?
Then those companies are in rough shape.
Top notch Climbers don't grow on trees. Ha!
** A climber is not top notch until s/he is in control of the tree and in control of themselves at all times. Until then, they're jacklegs, and poison to any but the most desparate.
If a client or a prime contractor has a short -fused climber blowing up instead of chilling, they're right to look elsewhere.
All the yelling and bad vibes--for what? You could have just leaned back, breathed deep and watched the clouds for a few seconds until UPS left, then set up clear ground control before continuing.
Trying to slow down UPS? That's as un-American as barfing applie pie on the stars and stripes. Mellow out, and operate on tree time. Theyou save may be your own.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
Yeah, GM. They have climbers. They hire me when their climber can't do it, or it's a large job to complete. I work every day.
Calling a climber 'Top Notch' automatically implies all the attributes you spoke of, and then some.
Can u dig it?
Eagle1
ArboristSite Operative
Ground man? cones? Tree Work ahead sign?
and yelling at the man who signs the checks? all it takes it patients, and a careful eye. You are a pro so I know that you would never make a cut until the ups man came out the way he went in. But, being as mild mannered as you are, I understand...?????
sometimes it is impossable to control and secure the entire work area. That is way we have colors on signs and empolyees. I have had a groundie hand out hard hats before (like it would help) but it makes people aware.
and yelling at the man who signs the checks? all it takes it patients, and a careful eye. You are a pro so I know that you would never make a cut until the ups man came out the way he went in. But, being as mild mannered as you are, I understand...?????
sometimes it is impossable to control and secure the entire work area. That is way we have colors on signs and empolyees. I have had a groundie hand out hard hats before (like it would help) but it makes people aware.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Another good idea I've seen is the gound people wearing high viz vests when rigging around walkways.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
The #1 Attribute is Control. The #1 thing for a 'Top-Notch Climber' to Control is The Climber him/herself. Until they can do that, they're 'Bottom Notch'.Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Calling a climber 'Top Notch' automatically implies all the attributes you spoke of, and then some.
Can u dig it?
Rocky I hope you've talked to the man and are again marketing your skills to him.:angel:
Peds are like lemmings, you just have to scare them right...
At one stage i had the habit of having a 2$ hockey mask in the lining of my helmet for ????s and giggles.
I was doing a job in the city centre,medium size tree with a park bench beneath it. I was just there to reduce one branch that was blocking a sign. We put cones out, and I climbed the tree while groundie sorted out some gear.But a couple of suits decided they wanted to sit on the bench and did so.
They were not aware I was in the tree above them (rope was on other side) and my groundie tried to tell them we were working in the area. they basically told him to sod off.
I put my mask on, lowered myself partially from the tree upside down and let out the best death scream I could manage with chainsaw in hand.
Yeah it was wrong to do, but dammit I would SOOO do it again to see a guy run from SIGHT like a girl.
IMHO Groundies are groundies, They control the ground, leave them with an oversized chainsaw in there hands to help enforce authority if people are making life hazardous. Its not there to threaten but people identify it with personal danger which is what your trying to get them to relise. I used to try to keep people back from areas in all sorts of ways, even traffic with road signs, traffic lights or lollypops. Found the best thing was one hand holding a 66 and the other held up in a stop motion.
But thats just me.
Mothers would make great tank commanders, they will go into any danger with a baby buggy!
At one stage i had the habit of having a 2$ hockey mask in the lining of my helmet for ????s and giggles.
I was doing a job in the city centre,medium size tree with a park bench beneath it. I was just there to reduce one branch that was blocking a sign. We put cones out, and I climbed the tree while groundie sorted out some gear.But a couple of suits decided they wanted to sit on the bench and did so.
They were not aware I was in the tree above them (rope was on other side) and my groundie tried to tell them we were working in the area. they basically told him to sod off.
I put my mask on, lowered myself partially from the tree upside down and let out the best death scream I could manage with chainsaw in hand.
Yeah it was wrong to do, but dammit I would SOOO do it again to see a guy run from SIGHT like a girl.
IMHO Groundies are groundies, They control the ground, leave them with an oversized chainsaw in there hands to help enforce authority if people are making life hazardous. Its not there to threaten but people identify it with personal danger which is what your trying to get them to relise. I used to try to keep people back from areas in all sorts of ways, even traffic with road signs, traffic lights or lollypops. Found the best thing was one hand holding a 66 and the other held up in a stop motion.
But thats just me.
Mothers would make great tank commanders, they will go into any danger with a baby buggy!
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