amsoil saber 100:1

[fullchisel]

Me neither. I have a friend I trust running it in his saw, trimmer, ice auger, etc.- so I'm tempted. He reads all their advertising and claims the stuff is wonderful.

I'll continue to let him do the testing for a while before I give it a shot.

i might try it at 50:1

 

[rahtreelimbs]

I really fail to see the advantages of running 100/1 over 32/1...........or whatever!!!


I am curious as to what the longevity of a saw will be at 100/1...........but thats as far as it goes.


If you are looking for cost savings..............look elsewhere!!!

 

[kevlar]

The oils that are run at 100 to one are usually a thirty weight base as opposed to conventional oils that are a ten weight base.Running at either reccomended mix will not cause problems,Took me awhile to come around too-very nervous when I tried it.

 

[kevlar]

i might try it at 50:1

I bet you wind up with ooze all over your saw!

 

[RiverRat2]

.. let me guess (wait.. I'll be wrong!).. na.... happy to let you do the research...

I go away for an entire day and no body else joins in? OK PEST, tell us what you know, in one post... :biggrinbounce2:

I'm in ,,,,, Ok Pest whats the scoop???? :monkey:

 

[Former Saw Builder]

Amsoil is safe like a said in a couple of post we have been running it for awhile without any problems,,, One of our lineman drove over a Dolmar 5100 the other day with the bucket truck we tore the saw apart to look at the engine to see how this oil was doing in the saw after a few dozen tanks of mix thru it and the inside was clean as a pin, For what it is worth I have complete faith in running Amsoil in the saws. We mix it at 70:1 the saws seem to run a little better like that maybe jetting issues who knows but the saws like the 70:1 mix the best overall.

Just another note...we also use 89 octane or higher fuel as a rule. The higher octane burns cleaner and cooler.

 

[bwalker]

If the Stihl 4-mix is patented how is it that Shindaiwa also offers the same design and pays no royalties to Stihl?

The C4 design is quit a bit differant than the 4 max, isnt it?
I believe the C4 was designed by some dude in Idaho for use in a military drone.

 

[Lakeside53]

I'm in ,,,,, Ok Pest whats the scoop???? :monkey:

Hmmm... I smell a troll.... me thinks Pest expected the stihl guys to jump in and say 4-mix was a "stihl invention"... Not! ... opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: :jester: I'm pretty sure it predates WW2


Hey Pest, come out and play... and tell us what part of the 4-mix is patented and if it even relates to 4-mix specifically at all.

 

[RiverRat2]

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

Hmmm... I smell a troll.... me thinks Pest expected the stihl guys to jump in and say 4-mix was a "stihl invention"... Not! ... opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: :jester: I'm pretty sure it predates WW2


Hey Pest, come out and play... and tell us what part of the 4-mix is patented and if it even relates to 4-mix specifically at all.

Yep!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :notrolls2: :notrolls2:

 

[PES+]

Closer Andy

The current 4-mix is very close to an 80's American development used in unmanned military drone planes.

You having an aircraft background are sort of correct in thinking of the old gnome style radial aircraft engines which were total loss lubrication systems but they did not mix the fuel and oil in one tank but had a separate oil tank.

The drones had to be able to operate in extreme angle conditions and the fuel lubricated engine was developed to retain some of the lower weight of the 2-strokes that were used with far less fuel consumption and with a better match of torque to the prop.

The oddest part about Stihl running with this design is it was known to be an relatively dirty engine design which was developed for a specific application.

When the 4-mix first was announced they did explain that the lubrication system was the patented part (they hold a patent on the arrangement of oil passages to lubricate the camshaft) but lately I see less and less mention of this and the 4-mix is usually presented as "The patented Stihl 4-mix engine"

Shindaiwa beat Stihl to market with the same engine type with their C-4 and I always wondered if this was a challenge to a patent that was quite tenuous from it's start.

 

[RiverRat2]

The current 4-mix is very close to an 80's American development used in unmanned military drone planes.

You having an aircraft background are sort of correct in thinking of the old gnome style radial aircraft engines which were total loss lubrication systems but they did not mix the fuel and oil in one tank but had a separate oil tank.

The drones had to be able to operate in extreme angle conditions and the fuel lubricated engine was developed to retain some of the lower weight of the 2-strokes that were used with far less fuel consumption and with a better match of torque to the prop.

The oddest part about Stihl running with this design is it was known to be an relatively dirty engine design which was developed for a specific application.

When the 4-mix first was announced they did explain that the lubrication system was the patented part (they hold a patent on the arrangement of oil passages to lubricate the camshaft) but lately I see less and less mention of this and the 4-mix is usually presented as "The patented Stihl 4-mix engine"

Shindaiwa beat Stihl to market with the same engine type with their C-4 and I always wondered if this was a challenge to a patent that was quite tenuous from it's start.

I work on the 4 mixes reularly and I tend to agree they are dirty moreso (especially in he valvetrain) if the owner is using reular fuel and dino oils and not running it a WOT,,, most times its hard to fix stupid!!!!!!

on the other hand,,,

We have some commercial lawncare account customers who run them and we have them using the ultra, and mid grade or premium fuel and the difference in reduced maintenance cost and improved longevity/reliability is very much worth the investment,,,

JMHO

 

[PES+]

The dirty I mentioned was overall emissions

Stihl has admitted that the 4-mix is much happier with lower oil ratios and a cleaner oil whatever the origin of the base is only going to help.

As I said in another thread hopefully the new Ultra will help the 4-mix.

These problems with emissions compliance were known well before the laws were put into effect and every major manufacturer waited until the absolute last second to offer any viable solutions.

There were quite a few advocates for design of lower oil ratio 2-strokes as a general step towards lower total emissions but virtually all the manufacturers balked at this in part due to complaints of total revenue stream.

There is tons of stuff on the web available that document what happened and who the players were at the time.

The 4-mix does have some benefits particularly in trimmer and blower applications which is the closest to the designs original purpose

The clash comes when one realizes that (as you just stated) holding the engine at one speed under continuous load causes extreme carbon build up and these are the precise conditions that blowers and trimmers operate under.

Ironic how the Stihl patent solves a problem and allows very low oil mix ratios for the 4-mix yet they cling to the 50 to 1 so they have I mix ratio across the product line.

These were the issues that were expressed by many when Stihl first began to announce the 4-mix and they remain.

 

[Fuzly]

The oils that are run at 100 to one are usually a thirty weight base as opposed to conventional oils that are a ten weight base.Running at either reccomended mix will not cause problems,Took me awhile to come around too-very nervous when I tried it.

I've heard people say the Amsoil is more "concentrated" or whatever. Your explanation makes sense to me.

I'm going to have to try something when I run out of Mobil.

 

[PES+]

And an offer to brand fanatics

Stihl did an exceptional job with the 441 and they deserve credit for building something that they had thought they would never need to produce and excelled in the product from what I can see.

I have not run them side by side with the 575 but I dislike the 575 for lots of reasons.

 

[Lakeside53]

Ironic how the Stihl patent solves a problem and allows very low oil mix ratios for the 4-mix yet they cling to the 50 to 1 so they have I mix ratio across the product line.

These were the issues that were expressed by many when Stihl first began to announce the 4-mix and they remain.

"Ironic" and "Cling"? I think it's called "practicality". Heck, we have enough problems telling customers to make sure their mix is 50:1 (not just add more to the 30% full container!), never mind maintaining two different containers and mix ratios.


Stihl tells us that Ultra is o.k, to 80:1 in blowers, but they are reluctant to publish this because it will result is the inadvertent use of 80:1 in the other equipment. And they have tested thier saws at 80:1, and aren't ready to go there.

We're not seeing any issues in any 4-mix engines using Ultra or other true synthetic mixes at 50:1. I use it in mine personal equipment and everything is looking peachy. Even the Stihl semi-synthetic seem to be working out o.k. but it's definitely "sootier" inside.

Blowers had some initial problems with the blower exhaust valves, but they were updated to stellite a year or two back.

 

[PES+]

"practicality" and the ability to sell EDTA and tell dealers that it is job security as far as valve adjustments.

6 of one and all that.

I am going by what was said in the past and very little of it panned out.

How come I didn't get bashed because the Shindaiwa uses reed valves?

opcorn:

 

[Lakeside53]

The current 4-mix is very close to an 80's American development used in unmanned military drone planes.

.....

You Shindaiwa beat Stihl to market with the same engine type with their C-4 and I always wondered if this was a challenge to a patent that was quite tenuous from it's start.

I'll find the data on the earliest use of "4-mix" (whch is what I thought you were refering to) It was pre-WW2... and it was Stihl that told me. The "techology" langushed because it had little practical advantage over other systems, that is, until the EPA made rules...

 

[Lakeside53]

"practicality" and the ability to sell EDTA and tell dealers that it is job security as far as valve adjustments.

6 of one and all that.


opcorn:

sure.. sure... away from conspiracy and back to the real world.. I can count on two hands how many 4-mix valves I've adjusted in 3 years... and most of those didn't need adjustment - just checking. And EDTA? ha, used two bottles ever, never liked the results, and don't even bother any more. Funny thing is, when a customer converts to Ultra, the buildup actually reduces...

 

[fullchisel]

sure.. sure... away from conspiracy and back to the real world.. I can count on two hands how many 4-mix valves I've adjusted in 3 years... and most of those didn't need adjustment - just checking. And EDTA? ha, used two bottles ever, never liked the results, and don't even bother any more. Funny thing is, when a customer converts to Ultra, the buildup actually reduces...

how can dino oil be smokeless? jonsered oil is.

 

[Lakeside53]

how can dino oil be smokeless? jonsered oil is.

Not sure I understand.. Dino is full smoke.