Anti-Topping Laws

[ClimbinArbor]

I have tried everything i can think of to help eradicate this man-made blight. Ive organized training seminars, stop to talk to every crew i see, and educate every homeowner who answers the door.

Its not working...

There are 250 tree companies and "individuals" operating in the Wichita metro area alone, and 8 of us are arborists. When you open the phone book 90% of the ads list topping in big bold letters.

I would like to talk with and pick the brains of people responsible for bringing improper practice laws to fruition (no pun intended). My reasons should be obvious...

I would also add that i am not looking to put my competition out of business, quite the opposite really. I work with as many of these guys that i can, but the worst offenders are the ones who dont want to hear it.

 

[Grace Tree]

Don't worry about it.

In the long run it will work out.

People need to change, not laws.

Just continue to educate people where and when you can. If you think the world can't change that way, consider cigarette smoking. When I grew up it seemed liked everyone smoked everywhere. Now you're considered to be defective if you smoke. Don't give up.
Phil

 

[arborjockey]

Only 8 arborist out of 250 sounds like your complaining:confused2:. I'd advertise that fact, keep my trap shut, and make a killing off the fact your a specialist in a field of no gooders.:hmm3grin2orange: Put a big ad in the paper for CROWN RESTORATION (DUE TO TOPPING)

 

[swyman]

Was out bidding today and noticed a bunch of new trees in the area that have recently been topped. Grinds my az, just don't know how anyone can think it looks good. Also ran across a tree that was removed yesterday in town by one of the larger companies in the area and they managed to take the gutter off the house and the garage as well as a very big dent on the the steel siding. Wright is in town doing line clearance with a absolute army! 7 buckets and a tracked boom and one crew chipping. Only thing I seen that was somewhat of a problem was the Bandit 200XP. DId not have a down pressure cylinder on the feed rolls. They had 4 guys chipping and they happened to have been doing a pine when I pulled up and three of them stood around because the branches would not feed in and would have to reverse the rolls and back and forth for each person. It drove me nuts watching, but they are probably not in that much of a hurry anyway. Is it really that much more to get the down pressure option? They infeed shoot was very small to.

 

[sgreanbeans]

I have tried everything i can think of to help eradicate this man-made blight. Ive organized training seminars, stop to talk to every crew i see, and educate every homeowner who answers the door.

Its not working...

There are 250 tree companies and "individuals" operating in the Wichita metro area alone, and 8 of us are arborists. When you open the phone book 90% of the ads list topping in big bold letters.

I would like to talk with and pick the brains of people responsible for bringing improper practice laws to fruition (no pun intended). My reasons should be obvious...

I would also add that i am not looking to put my competition out of business, quite the opposite really. I work with as many of these guys that i can, but the worst offenders are the ones who dont want to hear it.

U have actually taken it further than me. I have talked with the mayors, park directors, public works, etc. They all agreee, but each year nothing happens. It puzzles me, they have actually called me to talk about "did you see that tree on Central" HELL YES, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I have no problem putting these guys out of business, that do this work and I damn sure do not consider them my competition, they are a plague. They will actually go in depth to people, on why they "need to top their tree" Basically the reasons all are the same.............the tree is growing. Del is right, only through education will there be change, as long as the general public does not see it as a problem, nothing will happen. I have stopped trying to work the city, and take every chance I get to spread the gospel, when talking to the people. I still get calls to top trees, many times people are ignorant and will argue the point. I have talked with a couple guys, they know its wrong, they just plain don't care......at all. "DUDE ITS A F'ING TREE, WHO CARES" a guy yelled at me. He is in the phone book as a professional, is a member of the ISA and runs a decent sized show.

 

[abureels4me]

So don't start a hate war toward me but what exactly is wrong with topping a tree? I have no opinion either way but I never even knew it ruffled any feathers until I got on this site. The only thing I see is if it is my tree on my land and I want it topped then why is it anyone else's business?

 

[Grace Tree]

So don't start a hate war toward me but what exactly is wrong with topping a tree? I have no opinion either way but I never even knew it ruffled any feathers until I got on this site. The only thing I see is if it is my tree on my land and I want it topped then why is it anyone else's business?

Topping; the practice of arbitrary cutting of branches to reduce tree size is bad tree work. Topping isn’t trimming or pruning. It’s the improper and extensive cutting of tree branches to stubs. It removes an excessive amount of food producing leaves and can actually send the tree into “survival mode” with rapidly growing, weakly attached “water sprout” shoots. Topping disfigures trees, makes them vulnerable to insects and disease and guarantees future problems. It’s just plain bad tree work.

The concern is that tree "professionals" who are topping trees are doing crap work. Much like a doctor cutting off your foot to fix a hangnail. Add to that the fact that most of the trees will be around longer than the homeowner and there's a general stewardship of nature that leads people to speak up.
Phil

 

[Grace Tree]

Here's some more. Read on.
Trees Are Good - Tree Care Information

 

[sawinredneck]

I'm sorry, I am VERY sorry! But I am responsible for a few of the trees topped in Wichita. I didn't want to do it, I tried to tell the HO's there were better ways, better means and we did the best we could, lateral cuts etc. as we went. But yes, I have done a few!
"I don't care, I want to see the sun!" "I don't care, I'm sick of these leaves in my gutters!" It goes on, and it's ALWAYS a silver Maple! I don't know what people think when they buy a house with a large silver Maple in the back yard, the damn tree isn't going to get smaller!
I've talked many into crown reductions to minimize the "self pruning" properties of these tree's, but can't sell all of them on it. But I damn sure try!
As I'm not the one doing the climbing any more, just ground work, I can't really say "yea or nae" on the job. I don't like it, I don't want to do it, but if you can't get the HO to understand the reality that it is going to kill the tree eventually, I can't do much more than that!
Again, sorry!

 

[abureels4me]

Topping; the practice of arbitrary cutting of branches to reduce tree size is bad tree work. Topping isn’t trimming or pruning. It’s the improper and extensive cutting of tree branches to stubs. It removes an excessive amount of food producing leaves and can actually send the tree into “survival mode” with rapidly growing, weakly attached “water sprout” shoots. Topping disfigures trees, makes them vulnerable to insects and disease and guarantees future problems. It’s just plain bad tree work.

The concern is that tree "professionals" who are topping trees are doing crap work. Much like a doctor cutting off your foot to fix a hangnail. Add to that the fact that most of the trees will be around longer than the homeowner and there's a general stewardship of nature that leads people to speak up.
Phil

That makes sense, and I can understand not hacking a tree down to the trunk and 2-3 beams being the only thing left.

 

[MarquisTree]

There is a company about 40 miles south of us "tree topping by billy", hard to imagine that this stuff still goes on everyday. We have customers ask us to top trees almost everyday. I tell them we can not for ethical, and liability reasons. I explain all the precedent in "tree law" about liability from negligent pruning practices. I then explain to them if they want a tree topped it should be removed. period. This almost always opens the discussion to what they are actually hoping to accomplish from the "topping" I would say 80% of the time we are able to completely talk them out of it. Many people think a tree being tall is a problem, its a lot of work and some times we lose jobs over it but it is our responsiblity as professionals to educate the customer and refuse to top trees.
I am all in favor of a law against topping...but it would be next to impossible to enforce and it raises all sorts of questions of what would be the standard that would be enforced? we all can picture flagrant topping but what about borderline cases of crown reduction? Trees that have defects where you attempts to prune out the defects but leave something that looks like some topping cuts? or storm damaged trees that should be removed but the owner wants to try and save them? It would be a very hard thing to enforce.

 

[capetrees]

I'll play Joe Public on this one.

A law against it? If it's my tree and I want it topped, I'll top it or find someone that will. It's mine and I'll do what I want. Will the tree look ugly? Will it die? Will it get infected or attacked by bugs? I'll take my chances. So have me sign a release of liability to the guy that topped it. I don't care. I want the view, I want the leaves out of my gutters, I want my house to be safe from falling branches yet at the same time, I want the lower part of the tree to continue to block my neighbor for privacy. Want to pass a law? Pass one on public property but leave mine trees to my own doing. MYOB

 

[sgreanbeans]

I'll play Joe Public on this one.

A law against it? If it's my tree and I want it topped, I'll top it or find someone that will. It's mine and I'll do what I want. Will the tree look ugly? Will it die? Will it get infected or attacked by bugs? I'll take my chances. So have me sign a release of liability to the guy that topped it. I don't care. I want the view, I want the leaves out of my gutters, I want my house to be safe from falling branches yet at the same time, I want the lower part of the tree to continue to block my neighbor for privacy. Want to pass a law? Pass one on public property but leave mine trees to my own doing. MYOB

You cant make it illegal for the homeowner, well ya can, but would never happen, but ya can for the tree service operator.

My response to Joe

"Joe, you called me, I believe because you wanted a pro, I don't top trees, there are many reasons why, google it, if you are determined to top it instead of pruning it or removing and replacing it, then I am not your guy, you don't want a pro, you want a hack, call this guy, he doesn't have any insurance, experience or teeth. He may hit your deck and that new vinyl fence, but hey, at least you will have your view"

 

[sgreanbeans]

You guys can try and justify it all ya want, will never be enough. If you top, your a hack, end of story

 

[treeman75]

I'm sorry, I am VERY sorry! But I am responsible for a few of the trees topped in Wichita. I didn't want to do it, I tried to tell the HO's there were better ways, better means and we did the best we could, lateral cuts etc. as we went. But yes, I have done a few!
"I don't care, I want to see the sun!" "I don't care, I'm sick of these leaves in my gutters!" It goes on, and it's ALWAYS a silver Maple! I don't know what people think when they buy a house with a large silver Maple in the back yard, the damn tree isn't going to get smaller!
I've talked many into crown reductions to minimize the "self pruning" properties of these tree's, but can't sell all of them on it. But I damn sure try!
As I'm not the one doing the climbing any more, just ground work, I can't really say "yea or nae" on the job. I don't like it, I don't want to do it, but if you can't get the HO to understand the reality that it is going to kill the tree eventually, I can't do much more than that!
Again, sorry!

If you cant get the HO to understand walk away. Thats what I do I dont want my name on a topped tree.

 

[treeclimber101]

I know this is a guilty pleasure but I love to hack the hell outta Bradford Pears , I mean I will take one of them 30fters and hack her down to 18ft with a smile on my face , waving ang laughing to the passer byers , I mean they are a hateful tree ....

 

[treeman75]

A couple weeks ago I noticed a row of crab apples that where recently topped it was at catholic charities. I stopped and had to find out who did it the women said the lawn guys did it. I tried to explain to her why you dont top trees she said they do them every couple years. I pointed out the decay from where they had been topped before she pretty much said thats how they like them. It made me angry that she wouldnt even listen and I told her the lawn guys are idiots and hacks and they dont know what their doing. Im going to keep an eye out to see whos doing the mowing and tell them they need to stick to mowing!

 

[treeclimber101]

A couple weeks ago I noticed a row of crab apples that where recently topped it was at catholic charities. I stopped and had to find out who did it the women said the lawn guys did it. I tried to explain to her why you dont top trees she said they do them every couple years. I pointed out the decay from where they had been topped before she pretty much said thats how they like them. It made me angry that she wouldnt even listen and I told her the lawn guys are idiots and hacks and they dont know what their doing. Im going to keep an eye out to see whos doing the mowing and tell them they need to stick to mowing!

I have a an old Italian neighbor who has 30year old plums , they should about 30fters , but he table tops them 2xs a years and they are not much taller then 12ft and they have 18" trunks and I gotta admit they are healthy trees , but he started hitting them like that 20 some years ago ....I mean trees react differently in each case ...

 

[TEXA$TREE]

Job Creation at the very least

At the very very least I have always seen these butchered Trees as an opportunity for me as an employer to secure a work order which could extend for 10yrs (depending on plant response), could be 5 yrs. Message is each tree which has been incorrectly pruned due to ignorance does require acute care, to restore vigor and structural stability. Care can be administered throughout all seasons as we know and during dormancy or the "off season", we can stretch this work out to keep busy and fully restore the good health over time which is on our side in most cases. Furthermore, as mentioned above we can take the opportunity to educate masses of people, through newspaper editorials and public forums, internet blogs and local homeshows, to mention a few. Extra effort could be taken as well if we photograph our personal before and after work and most definetely keep accurate track of all work. Start a referral program which will spread better the "good word", people appreciate documentation I have learned. When I remember how noble of a trade Arboriculture is and the history attached to many Trees, I have no issue with alot of the non profit work I find myself doing with my Tree Care co. Yes a point well understood OP> the shear ignorance some people live their lives with, at the end of the day alot of us are only concerned with the bottomline. Often an entire community can appear wartorn almost, with retarded looking Trees because of the mental viral effect a big $Prune Job$ can have on a human being, meanwhile at the cost of our forefathers hard work and determination through study and association with many Noblemen throughout centuries. Building a city with shade for our horses and clean air and protection from the beating sun. Political parties have always been and is where we need to focus our modern attention, educating men and women alike with Authority. Some people in politics have not the slightest idea of how very very complicated incorporating new eco-systems can be, or even enhancing existing eco systems. Here in lies the ultimate opportunity fellow Arborists, I say this with condfidence as we are embarking on a new and exciting way of life, a life where I see the possibilities for an Arborist are endle$$, and a legal small fortune to made for mankind. Measure what you will when will away your measurement, as GREEN is our way and the world agrees now, that it is time for change, we are among the leaders.

 

[arborjockey]

I have a an old Italian neighbor who has 30year old plums , they should about 30fters , but he table tops them 2xs a years and they are not much taller then 12ft and they have 18" trunks and I gotta admit they are healthy trees , but he started hitting them like that 20 some years ago ....I mean trees react differently in each case ...

Table topping, crown reduction, crown thinning, lowering the canopy, heading back, let's see...topping, drop crotching, taking the sail out, wind thinning, and ummmm....vista prunning. I do them all per customer request . I let them know the hazards involved and other options they have. Then its up to them its their tree. Don't get me wrong I've turned down trees but a million dollar view supersedes the health of a tree.
In the above statement i can see a well informed homeowner. What lots of ISA junkys don't understand is old English and ancient Japanese prunning techniques. A pollarded tree in someones eye may look ruined. In fact the tree has been managed like that for 400 years. People don't want trees topped yet in some situations its the best option. Large trees in urban areas sometimes need to be topped or we loose them all together.