Anti-Topping Laws

[ClimbMIT]

Sounds like that should have been pic of the year! LMAO

 

[ClimbinArbor]

We all agree that topping is wrong, and yes there are exceptions (utility, storm damage and pollarding to name a few).

But the subject of legislation seems to be split down the middle. Even the people saying they are against legislation agree that something needs to be done.... But What?
How can I personally educate 1 million HOs? Ive tried HO seminars, but the ones that attend are the ones that are allready well enough into arboriculture that they knew better.
How can I personally educate tree trimmers? Ive tried seminars for tree workers, again the ones that want to learn are allready ahead of the curve.

Every door that I knock on gets information about the care of their trees, and that helps. I cant count the number of homeowners Ive educated. But ultimatly it is the tree companies owners and trimmers that are responsible for the work they perform, and Ive only helped ONE tree company! They just wont listen! So what do I do?

Ive said several times in this thread that the thought of taking legislative steps churns my stomach, but im running out of options.

AND it DOES seem to be working in some locations, when done right.....

 

[treeclimber101]

Nice hat rack!

Hatracks , at this point I think there just bumpers so no one backs into the building or to hang MISSING DOG AND CAT POSTERS

 

[RavenFeather]

Up north

Up in my hometown, there's a law preventing municipal trees from being topped.
Chapter 3.04.08 Urban Forestry Program Law #13

"Tree topping. It shall be unlawful as a normal practice for any person, firm, or City department to top any street tree, park tree, or other tree on public property. "Topping" is defined as the severe cutting back of limbs to stubs larger than three inches in diameter within the tree's crown to such a degree so as to remove the normal canopy and disfigure the tree. Trees severely damaged by storms or other causes, or certain trees under utility wires or other obstructions where other pruning practices are impractical may be exempted from this ordinance at the determination of the City Tree Advisory Committee."

 

[rootzone-pro]

Up in my hometown, there's a law preventing municipal trees from being topped.
Chapter 3.04.08 Urban Forestry Program Law #13

"Tree topping. It shall be unlawful as a normal practice for any person, firm, or City department to top any street tree, park tree, or other tree on public property. "Topping" is defined as the severe cutting back of limbs to stubs larger than three inches in diameter within the tree's crown to such a degree so as to remove the normal canopy and disfigure the tree. Trees severely damaged by storms or other causes, or certain trees under utility wires or other obstructions where other pruning practices are impractical may be exempted from this ordinance at the determination of the City Tree Advisory Committee."

I notice it refers to street trees, park trees and trees on public property. Does not refer to trees on private property. I am OK with that even though that is the start of a very slippery slope/

 

[arborjockey]

what about the cowboys

Are we actually asking our government to step in and regulate us. That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a looooong time. Everything they touch increases year after year. The tape gets thicker to cut through to get the job done. Soon the only work done will be a select few if not one big company and more then likely over 15-25 years the city will be doing all their own trees. The $ good and then they wont have to deal with us. :bang:
The county (who does all park and rec. That's from the beaches to city streets) is the biggest butcher in town. They hat rack exclusively. They have ruined more trees then katrina and now I look for them to regulate? Who sets the standard? The local union thugs ISA. Take a joke of a test then pay your union dews. Ok your qualified. The ISA is a good starting point for climbers. Its also a great place to reseach but don't get caught up with their political agenda of making everyone a certified arborist. I can get a diploma off the e-net all day long doesn't mean im qualified.

If the city has trees to protect put them on the registry and protect them. Your not loosing work to hacks your loosing work because your roots in the community aren't deep enough or you can't sell the job. Sell yourself and the good job you do. The $ is the last thing.

Every out of work contractor with a 1/2 ton truck and a craftsmen saw is a tree guy now days. If he gets your job tell the customer good luck with that. You get what you pay for.

The oldest consulting arborist in Oregon has passed away. He would pull up on a job and start yelling at idiot butchers. Man up stop by in the middle of the job and tell them it looks like #### and their hacks.

Scroll back through this thread and look at the 1st photo I put of a racked tree. Im going this morning to meet with the owner of the hotel. Then im calling that tree service to let them know I refused the work like 5 other company's did. Why would he drive in from 2 countys away to ruin our city trees. Big Hawaiian or not im gunna chew his ass out.

 

[ClimbinArbor]

Are we actually asking our government to step in and regulate us. That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a looooong time.

Who sets the standard? The local union thugs ISA. Take a joke of a test then pay your union dews. Ok your qualified.

The oldest consulting arborist in Oregon has passed away. He would pull up on a job and start yelling at idiot butchers. Man up stop by in the middle of the job and tell them it looks like #### and their hacks.

I butchered your quote a lil...

Amen to all three...


While I have agreed the whole time here that having a government intervention is an appalling idea, there must be a way to stop the hacks without intervening further into our rights. Why cant we just take a few ANSI regs, test over them, you pass you get a license. have a few volunteer arborists out doing license and work checks. If you hack, you lose your license. If you dont have a license its a $500 fine. i think a one time warning would be in order...

 

[rootzone-pro]

Are we actually asking our government to step in and regulate us. That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a looooong time. Everything they touch increases year after year. The tape gets thicker to cut through to get the job done. Soon the only work done will be a select few if not one big company and more then likely over 15-25 years the city will be doing all their own trees. The $ good and then they wont have to deal with us. :bang:
The county (who does all park and rec. That's from the beaches to city streets) is the biggest butcher in town. They hat rack exclusively. They have ruined more trees then katrina and now I look for them to regulate? Who sets the standard? The local union thugs ISA. Take a joke of a test then pay your union dews. Ok you're qualified. The ISA is a good starting point for climbers. Its also a great place to research but don't get caught up with their political agenda of making everyone a certified arborist.

I also butchered the quote a bit. Who sets the standard is the key. Is it the Huggers or the Hackers? I consider myself neither. Trees are a renewable resource, not gods to worship. I drove by an orchard yesterday that had been freshly pruned. I thought to myself that half the people on here would be in tears if they saw a commercial fruit operation. I can hear it now - Topping! Hacking! Butchers! This proves that even severe pruning can do good. They sure produce fruit.
If you saw a Eucalyptus we worked on you would probably have a fit. The tree was 95% dead with a capital D. The woman loved the tree and did not want us to take it out, she wanted us to fix it. Her late husband had planted it and he loved the tree. It was either going to stay there and complete the dying process or we had to 'fix it'. I tried to explain, but no deal. I proposed to her that we would cut away all the dead and obviously dying areas and see what happens. We could always complete the removal later. She agreed, that was nearly two years ago. I drive by that tree often and enjoy seeing it thrive and slowly produce more and more healthy foliage. Now if I was some know it all, obnoxious arborist who wanted to run everyone else's business, I would have insisted the tree come down, or it be left to die. I would have had one sad old lady to whom I did not offer my best effort and a dead tree. Sorry guys, I like my way better and will do all I can to ensure that you NEVER get the power over private trees that you want.

 

[arborjockey]

I agree to chase down the offender. On thebig island we have the outdoor circle which is a organization who donate time and resources to help make the island a better place with trees and plants. With a huge ficus tree in question The president went out to see what type of prune would go on. The ISA Arborist said he would be taking 25% out. Blah blah blah. As soon as the president left the owner said " its my tree rack it " and it got racked. Terrible but what do you do. Who do you get to inforce it. 85% of the companies here top trees. Those monkeys will go ape#### if you try to pass a law of no topping of all trees. Pick some to save as historical and then call it good. You try to save all the trees and your going to starve good tree guys.

"Topping" is defined as the severe cutting back of limbs to stubs larger than three inches in diameter within the tree's crown to such a degree so as to remove the normal canopy and disfigure the tree. Trees severely damaged by storms or other causes, or certain trees under utility wires or other obstructions where other pruning practices are impractical may be exempted from this ordinance at the determination of the City Tree Advisory Committee."

This is a good start for a city with mature trees but there's so much gray area. The above statement can be torn to pieces in court by a veteran consulting arborist. Send this to homeowners and businesses(that own the property). Then try to fine them and see what happens.

Did the estimate for uncle billy the land barren and he wanted to know why it was so high. I told him the crown restoration would take 15-17 years.

 

[sgreanbeans]

Its all clear to me now

People who top trees are not good tree guys. This is getting comical. The ISA a union!, are u for real? lol...wow.
Wheres my card and bennies?

 

[sgreanbeans]

Are we actually asking our government to step in and regulate us. That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a looooong time. Everything they touch increases year after year. The tape gets thicker to cut through to get the job done. Soon the only work done will be a select few if not one big company and more then likely over 15-25 years the city will be doing all their own trees. The $ good and then they wont have to deal with us. :bang:
The county (who does all park and rec. That's from the beaches to city streets) is the biggest butcher in town. They hat rack exclusively. They have ruined more trees then katrina and now I look for them to regulate? Who sets the standard? The local union thugs ISA. Take a joke of a test then pay your union dews. Ok you're qualified. The ISA is a good starting point for climbers. Its also a great place to research but don't get caught up with their political agenda of making everyone a certified arborist.

I also butchered the quote a bit. Who sets the standard is the key. Is it the Huggers or the Hackers? I consider myself neither. Trees are a renewable resource, not gods to worship. I drove by an orchard yesterday that had been freshly pruned. I thought to myself that half the people on here would be in tears if they saw a commercial fruit operation. I can hear it now - Topping! Hacking! Butchers! This proves that even severe pruning can do good. They sure produce fruit.
If you saw a Eucalyptus we worked on you would probably have a fit. The tree was 95% dead with a capital D. The woman loved the tree and did not want us to take it out, she wanted us to fix it. Her late husband had planted it and he loved the tree. It was either going to stay there and complete the dying process or we had to 'fix it'. I tried to explain, but no deal. I proposed to her that we would cut away all the dead and obviously dying areas and see what happens. We could always complete the removal later. She agreed, that was nearly two years ago. I drive by that tree often and enjoy seeing it thrive and slowly produce more and more healthy foliage. Now if I was some know it all, obnoxious arborist who wanted to run everyone else's business, I would have insisted the tree come down, or it be left to die. I would have had one sad old lady to whom I did not offer my best effort and a dead tree. Sorry guys, I like my way better and will do all I can to ensure that you NEVER get the power over private trees that you want.

Your new so I will let ya know, and to everyone else, who also, do not know. Do not change a persons quote, you can highlight key points, that's fine. Do not change the words.

 

[rootzone-pro]

1984

I guess the thought police are out - my replies to posts get approved by a moderator all of a sudden. Good way to keep your own philosophy on top.:msp_wink:

 

[arborjockey]

People who top trees are not good tree guys. This is getting comical. The ISA a union!, are u for real? lol...wow.
Wheres my card and bennies?

I didtnt say that people who " Hat rack" healthy trees, on a routine basis are good tree guys. I said you would run good tree guys out of town. Lots of good tree guys dont work in certain areas because of the paperwork and costs. Yet yuppies with deep pockets and fancy equipment pay the fees but miss the boat on proper pruning.

The ISA issues a card with your membership. Its official with your own #. That # gets you back door access at the website. Your discounts on books, dvd's, and tests are your BENNIES. Put that Big sticker on your truck to advertise that your CERTIFIED. But know this if my last boss ran one ad in the paper his phone would melt from the influx of calls. Thats what doing knowledgeable tree work, in the same area, on the same trees for 40 years will do. No certification needed. Trees (firs, pines, birchs etc) that have been so called topped, have been now managed for over 85 years. His grandfather topped them because the root system had been compromised or they were just to big for the area. Lots and lots of factors. They certainly would have either blown over or apart by now. AGAIN when trees have heart/core rot the cables, bracing,etc all work to a certain degree but at a certain point the overhead mass has to be removed. The tree will die but having a 7' x 50' trunk thats full of habitat in your yard for 25-100 years is an option. Its not a black and white issue. Go after the offender but know what your talking about.:msp_wink:

 

[rootzone-pro]

I didtnt say that people who " Hat rack" healthy trees, on a routine basis are good tree guys. I said you would run good tree guys out of town. Lots of good tree guys dont work in certain areas because of the paperwork and costs. Yet yuppies with deep pockets and fancy equipment pay the fees but miss the boat on proper pruning.

The ISA issues a card with your membership. Its official with your own #. That # gets you back door access at the website. Your discounts on books, dvd's, and tests are your BENNIES. Put that Big sticker on your truck to advertise that your CERTIFIED. But know this if my last boss ran one ad in the paper his phone would melt from the influx of calls. Thats what doing knowledgeable tree work, in the same area, on the same trees for 40 years will do. No certification needed. Trees (firs, pines, birchs etc) that have been so called topped, have been now managed for over 85 years. His grandfather topped them because the root system had been compromised or they were just to big for the area. Lots and lots of factors. They certainly would have either blown over or apart by now. AGAIN when trees have heart/core rot the cables, bracing,etc all work to a certain degree but at a certain point the overhead mass has to be removed. The tree will die but having a 7' x 50' trunk thats full of habitat in your yard for 25-100 years is an option. Its not a black and white issue. Go after the offender but know what your talking about.:msp_wink:

I am not going to select from this post to quote because it all deserves to be said twice at least. It appears that the further west you get, the more real the tree guys are - and Hawaii is waaay west:msp_biggrin:

 

[arborjockey]

Little off the top. say 25% N.W. style:msp_scared:
pic care of alternative forest operations .....Alternative Forest Operations

Thanks Mr. kemmler!:msp_wink:

For those who dont know these guys are the real deal.



View attachment 227537

 

[mattfr12]

I am not going to select from this post to quote because it all deserves to be said twice at least. It appears that the further west you get, the more real the tree guys are - and Hawaii is waaay west:msp_biggrin:

Three times. People that see pushing for more regulations in there business might end up putting themselves out of business. 90% of the things that happen in the world revolve around money. I'm not for topping trees but when the regulations start the question you have to ask yourself is, are your pockets deep enough to handle the profit the government is gonna expect to gain from this.

It's already harder than hell to not loose half your money in taxes and other fees. 100 grand is more like 60 once you get clubbed and bent over a few times by state and federal. I pay taxes twice on every dollar I get to spend. I get taxed for my company earning it then when you pay yourself a wage you get hit again. It's stupid.

Think about selling a Car that changes hands four or five times. Sooner or later the government almost gets the value of the car.

 

[rootzone-pro]

Little off the top. say 25% N.W. style:msp_scared:
pic care of alternative forest operations .....Alternative Forest Operations

Thanks Mr. kemmler!:msp_wink:

For those who dont know these guys are the real deal.
View attachment 227537

Hey man, you must be from the NW. I knew there was something right about you! Here is 100% off the top. 170' Spruce 10'6" DBH. co-dom stem had already hit house.

View attachment 227548

 

[VA-Sawyer]

I pay taxes twice on every dollar I get to spend. I get taxed for my company earning it then when you pay yourself a wage you get hit again. It's stupid.

Sorry, but that isn't true. The company pays taxes on the profit it makes, not the gross income. The wages you pay to yourself are deducted from the profit as an expense. YOU pay taxes on those wages as income to you. It only gets taxed once, but it still hurts.
Rick

 

[arborjockey]

Hey man, you must be from the NW. I knew there was something right about you! Here is 100% off the top. 170' Spruce 10'6" DBH. co-dom stem had already hit house.

View attachment 227548

big ol tree. where was the house? oh maybe the house boat? looks like salmon habitat better call fish and game have them give an assessment. see if they cant get you a removal permit.

 

[rootzone-pro]

big ol tree. where was the house? oh maybe the house boat? looks like salmon habitat better call fish and game have them give an assessment. see if they cant get you a removal permit.

Fish and Game and Forestry were there - wanted the tree in the river. Picture was taken from house 60' away. Even had permission from County.