Anybody have some closeup pics of a band roller?

[Old Hilly]

Well, after reading Andy's post about the direction of the cup in the bands, I am going to shut up and go to my room! For the edges of the band to bow outward seems to defy my limited logic but if that's what they do, then that's what they do and I am now officially confused.:help:
Does the shop-bought band-roller have 2 paralell rollers or a pair of convex & concave rollers to stetch the centre of the band to match the outer edges?
Dennis (the confused).

 

[Andrew96]

I think you and I are in agreement on a lot of the things that causes the band to cup. Another thing to consider is that generally a blade on a mill will cut more linial ft in a day than a blade on a band saw in anything less than an industrial shop will cut in a month. These blades take a beating. Not to mention that some mill's will try to turn the blade's at over 6000 lin ft per min.,

Yes you guys certainly run these bands hard. Now we know why...well some agree...go back to fixing it...I want to see how you guys are going to do it since I don't have this problem on my baby VBS.

I'm running about 56 hp on my band mill, which could be part of the cupping. But I wouldn't consider a 5hp vertical band saw a baby.
Andy

OK, I don't know why I thought most of these stationary band mills were running say up to 30hp max...but 56hp!!! I'm sure you can motor right through anything. Clearly if after hitting it with up to 56hp you still have a cold blade...you must have the sharpening...setting properly sorted out.
My baby bandsaw...Thanks....Though I only have a small shop...I didn't think a 5hp vertical was that small either (enough for what I do) but in comparison.....come on...56hp must be some 4 cylinder 4 stroke. I cannot imagine the forces on that band.

 

[Andrew96]

Well, after reading Andy's post about the direction of the cup in the bands, I am going to shut up and go to my room! For the edges of the band to bow outward seems to defy my limited logic but if that's what they do, then that's what they do and I am now officially confused.:help:

Dennis.....come back out of your room and play with the kids....I've tried to reread everything Andy said and don't know where you saw him say the bands were cupped (with the band in normal cutting position) with the cup in. Now one of us has to be wrong but I thought it was cupped out (the middle of the band in normal cutting position...out, while the edges of the band (front and back) are in. I think they bend out like you also think they 'should'. If I'm wrong...I'll go to my room.

 

[FJH]

Blade cup

My observation as well is the cup is usually towards the the wheel as Andy hs said .
In answer to the other question!I beleve Andy stated earlier that one of the band rollers rollers is flat and one has a bead type affair on it!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/redprospector/Saw mill/Plansdrawings.jpg

Anyway I managed to get my hands on one of the above units so Im going to do some mods to one of the rollers and see what washes out!I got the unit for 170 bucks with taxes in and a 1/2 tank of gas so a bit cheaper than having it shiped but not much!
When i get to it I'll let you guys know what happens!

 

[TraditionalTool]

My observation as well is the cup is usually towards the the wheel as Andy hs said .
In answer to the other question!I beleve Andy stated earlier that one of the band rollers rollers is flat and one has a bead type affair on it!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/redprospector/Saw mill/Plansdrawings.jpg

Anyway I managed to get my hands on one of the above units so Im going to do some mods to one of the rollers and see what washes out!I got the unit for 170 bucks with taxes in and a 1/2 tank of gas so a bit cheaper than having it shiped but not much!
When i get to it I'll let you guys know what happens!

I'm watching to see how this all works out. Does your unit have the tension adjuster for the beading wheels? Did you get the green unit that looked clean and compact?

 

[Old Hilly]

Well, when I read this.....
"Actually, the blade will cup the opposite from the crown on the wheels.

Andy"
I sort of got the idea that the cup was outward, ie. the exact oposite of what I would have expected, hence my total confusion and retirement to a quiet corner for a glass of medicinal spirits and herbal extracts.
Can someone eggsplain whats goin' on?
Dennis (the still confuzeled)

 

[redprospector]

OK, I don't know why I thought most of these stationary band mills were running say up to 30hp max...but 56hp!!! I'm sure you can motor right through anything. Clearly if after hitting it with up to 56hp you still have a cold blade...you must have the sharpening...setting properly sorted out.
My baby bandsaw...Thanks....Though I only have a small shop...I didn't think a 5hp vertical was that small either (enough for what I do) but in comparison.....come on...56hp must be some 4 cylinder 4 stroke. I cannot imagine the forces on that band.

Yep, you're right 4 cylinder 4 stroke. 1600cc dual port VW engine with a few modifications. Some of the newer mills come with diesel engines that are 65 horses or more. I built this one before that option was available (or at least common).

Andy

 

[redprospector]

Well, when I read this.....
"Actually, the blade will cup the opposite from the crown on the wheels.

Andy"
I sort of got the idea that the cup was outward, ie. the exact oposite of what I would have expected, hence my total confusion and retirement to a quiet corner for a glass of medicinal spirits and herbal extracts.
Can someone eggsplain whats goin' on?
Dennis (the still confuzeled)

Hahaha. Don't retire, this is where it get's interesting.
Bear with me as I try to explain. This is why I never became a teacher.
As the blade passes over the band wheel under tension it will bend in the direction of the crown, actually moving the molecules of the steel slightly (stretching). Although the blades I use are only .042" thick, the surface in contact with the crown of the wheel will actually "stretch" slightly more than the surface that is not in contact (the outside of the blade). Added to that, the fact that the front (tooth side), and the back of the blade are basicly staying the same size as they started out, the inside center portion of the blade is becoming more "stretched" than the outside center portion, the cup will be the opposite direction of the crown.
If that didn't confuse you, I don't know what will.
Now this dosen't happen all at once. On a new blade it may take 8 or 10 sharpenings to get to the point that a blade just won't cut right. I generally get between 700 and 1000 bd. ft. of lumber out of a blade before it needs to be resharpened. After a blade has been rolled, I've found that about every 4 or so sharpenings it needs to be rolled again.

Clear as Mud?

Andy

 

[FJH]

I'm watching to see how this all works out. Does your unit have the tension adjuster for the beading wheels? Did you get the green unit that looked clean and compact?

No I went as cheap as I could get and don't forget this will and can be used for its origanal purpose.That way its not a total throw away if it don't straighten bands well! We'll see!

http://www.kmstools.com/magnum-bead-roller-2935

Andy It really does make sence to some degree I have to beleive its more the push than the wheels its self that does this thou as I stated my wheels are flat so in my case the wheels have no reason to cup the blade When you first start into a log your working on a small surface yet you have to keep your guides quite a bit apart that in my mind puts a lot stress on the blade with no real backing
so you end up pushing and sretching the blade in that manner between the two guides With a lot of emty space not backed up.It can be as much as 3-6 inches of air blade between the guide at times At least on my mill!


I like the VW mill awsume!1600 dual port same as my dune buggy! Single carb or dual?I got dual solex on my buggy!
Vdubs lend them selves well to this stuff as well as many other uses, I may convet the hyda mill to vw some day we'll see!
you got hydralics right ? Do you run that off the jack shaft at the back?

 

[redprospector]

Fred,
I really think that the guides being a little far apart has less to do with the cupping than you think, but that's not to say it has nothing to do with it.
Your wheels being flat may help with the cupping, but try this. Lay a piece of sheet metal on a hard flat surface, and give it a good sharp rap with the peining end of a ball pein hammer. Now turn the hammer over and give it a good sharp rap with the flat end. The place you hit with the peining end will be distorted. The place you hit with the flat part of the head will be distorted too, but to a much lesser degree. So in that theory it would take longer to cup the blade on flat wheels.
You just can't continualy move metal around a wheel under tension without having an effect on it.

My engine came off a buddy's baja bug when he upgraded to an 1835 cc engine. It has a single carb in the tradition of the KISS method of engineering.
I went with the VW because it was an inexpensive alternative to a big Kohler, or Honda.............engine. Parts are relatively cheap, and it's almost as simple to work on as a chainsaw. Plus I got a lot more torque to play with than the Kohler etc has. It's a win, win proposition using the VW for this application in my book.

Andy

 

[FJH]

Vw

About the bands Your likly correct!
You have hydralics correct?Do You run the pump off the jack shaft on the flywheel?Extra belt!?

 

[redprospector]

About the bands Your likly correct!
You have hydralics correct?Do You run the pump off the jack shaft on the flywheel?Extra belt!?

Yep, hydraulics are the only way to fly.
Yeah, I just ran an extra belt to the pump. You can see the pump in the left side of the 1st pic I posted. It's an old "pedistal" style pump that was made to take the side load of running a belt. That simplified things quite a bit, but I've been thinking about upgrading to a little bigger pump. We'll see what happens.
This pic shows where I mounted the tank, pump, and lines.

Andy

 

[Old Hilly]

Well Andy, I was half right. I understood how the problem was caused, that part was as simple as the new Milenium actually starting in 2001, not 2000 like we all celebrated (which was a great excuse to have yet another bloody great grog-on and fireworks but we only got to the grog-on- no fireworks down here).
The tricky part is working out why the band decides to curl in the oposite direction to the way it was formed:help:.
Either way, how do we stop all this from happening? Or better still, how do we fix the cupped bands? Fixing the bands might be an easier solution and it may give us another chance to check the bands for possible cracks etc. We also get another tool to play with which will give us more time in the shed / shop where we can relax and drink some malted beverage.
As I understand it, the machine is just a couple of rollers that the blade runs between, and in doing so the blade is flattened. Would it be a silly idea to incorporate these rollers into the bandsaw so that the blade is constantly being flattened as it is being used?
Dennis.

 

[TraditionalTool]

Would it be a silly idea to incorporate these rollers into the bandsaw so that the blade is constantly being flattened as it is being used?
Dennis.

I like the idea, but I suspect it would make the blade brittle by having it rolled constantly. I could be wrong, but that's my first thought. Maybe a set of rubber rollers that would do simlar with less pressure?

 

[Andrew96]

The tricky part is working out why the band decides to curl in the oposite direction to the way it was formed:help:.

Would it be a silly idea to incorporate these rollers into the bandsaw so that the blade is constantly being flattened as it is being used?
Dennis.

Though I'm not the one trying to run cupped bands..I don't understand why the cup went the wrong way either..and I mouthed off poor Dennis thinking I did...sorry about that....I didn't get my ball peen and some sheet metal out..but I do know which way the metal would bend...towards the side I would hit. Cupped edges up from the workbench. Why wouldn't the band do the same? Are you sure you didn't turn the band inside out when you rolled out the cup?

As for rolling a cup out of a band constantly...that's a recipe for work hardening and cracking for sure. I don't need a cool dune buggy sounding 4 cylinder mill to predict that.

Nice dune buggy mill you made. I saw a picture of the engine when I started searching around here years ago. I never imagined it was on a mill. Looks fun to run.

 

[redprospector]

Ok guys, I may be incapable of explaining why the blade cups the opposite direction of what we think it should, but that dosen't change the fact that it does. It may be one of those things we just have to accept and say; Damn, who'da thunk it?
The ball pein hammer thing was probably a bad idea on my part in this conversation. I was using it to show that whether your wheels are flat, or crowned it would have an effect on the metal.

On another note, we don't have to re-invent the wheel here, so all we really need to know is what has happened.
It takes less than 5 minutes to check a blade for flatness, set up the band roller, and roll it flat. Even if you have to roll it twice it's under 5 minutes. Done while you're sharpening & setting, so it's really not that big a deal. You may not have a problem at all with cupping, but if you do you have a choice to make. Either run it until it quits cutting right & throw it away, send them to someone who has a band roller, buy a band roller, or build a band roller. Any way you do it, if you're going to keep cutting with them you have to keep them flat. If you buy or build a band roller you will probably start understanding what I am trying, but failing to explain by watching it work.

Andy

 

[FJH]

Ok guys, I may be incapable of explaining why the blade cups the opposite direction of what we think it should, but that dosen't change the fact that it does. It may be one of those things we just have to accept and say; Damn, who'da thunk it?
The ball pein hammer thing was probably a bad idea on my part in this conversation. I was using it to show that whether your wheels are flat, or crowned it would have an effect on the metal.

On another note, we don't have to re-invent the wheel here, so all we really need to know is what has happened.
It takes less than 5 minutes to check a blade for flatness, set up the band roller, and roll it flat. Even if you have to roll it twice it's under 5 minutes. Done while you're sharpening & setting, so it's really not that big a deal. You may not have a problem at all with cupping, but if you do you have a choice to make. Either run it until it quits cutting right & throw it away, send them to someone who has a band roller, buy a band roller, or build a band roller. Any way you do it, if you're going to keep cutting with them you have to keep them flat. If you buy or build a band roller you will probably start understanding what I am trying, but failing to explain by watching it work.

Andy

So speeking of rolling,you roll before you set and sharpen correct!
Or can it be done at any point if you got a problem blade?

 

[redprospector]

So speeking of rolling,you roll before you set and sharpen correct!
Or can it be done at any point if you got a problem blade?

I generally do it before I set & sharpen, but it can be done any time.

Andy

 

[bobsreturn]

does any one have a photo of a band roller ? the actual rollers please! are they shaped like an english wheel? have a friend who runs a bandsaw with 5inch wide bands . some cut well most dont . local saw doctor who sharpens for him ,and supplys the blades cant seem to get it right . talks of tension in the blade? and the ones that cut a few logs crack in the gullet . any info most welcome , cheers from down under

 

[TraditionalTool]

does any one have a photo of a band roller ? the actual rollers please! are they shaped like an english wheel? have a friend who runs a bandsaw with 5inch wide bands . some cut well most dont . local saw doctor who sharpens for him ,and supplys the blades cant seem to get it right . talks of tension in the blade? and the ones that cut a few logs crack in the gullet . any info most welcome , cheers from down under

You should start out by reading this thread. Then you will know that the top has a bead on it, and the bottom roller is flat.

Andy offered to get some pics but his roller is out in the shed and he's babysitting his wife who just had surgery not long ago.

I would say be patient, the pics will come, and in the mean time you can start by reading this thread from the start to the end.

I was going to say "Welcome to AS". But I think I should say, "Congrats on getting the courage to post!"