I don't worry about turning the file but after each tooth I do tap the end of the file on the saw vice. I wear 3x glasses while filing usually and can see the fines flying.
Anyone else turn the file during the stroke?
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AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
OTE="Oldman47, post: 5353850, member: 129543"]You think that's tough, try turning one in a Granberg file-n-joint.[/QUOTE]
That's is the only thing that bugs me about the Granberg type of filing guides. They lock up the file. If the "Granberg" allowed the file to rotate, and get in and out easy and quick, it would be a no brainer in my tool box...
Another thing that bugs me about filing guides is the ones for the rakers...
Why sharpen the cutters razor sharp and then put a piece of hardened steel on top of the cutter corners, and fold down the ultra thin top chrome layer...
Guide plates like this will rest on, and dull the cutter corners that we just sharpened.
Here is my photo "proof"...
As you can see, it is harder to detect when standing above the chain when filing. But bright light always helps to see the shiny spots of dull....
That's is the only thing that bugs me about the Granberg type of filing guides. They lock up the file. If the "Granberg" allowed the file to rotate, and get in and out easy and quick, it would be a no brainer in my tool box...
Another thing that bugs me about filing guides is the ones for the rakers...
Why sharpen the cutters razor sharp and then put a piece of hardened steel on top of the cutter corners, and fold down the ultra thin top chrome layer...
Guide plates like this will rest on, and dull the cutter corners that we just sharpened.
Here is my photo "proof"...
As you can see, it is harder to detect when standing above the chain when filing. But bright light always helps to see the shiny spots of dull....
I agree...
I file my rakers before sharpening the cutters. Heck, I always give the rakers an extra stroke-of-the-file with guide removed anyway (as I'm rounding the leading edge)... I figure close enough. B'sides, they ain't never perfect anyway, a fella don't file the rakers every time the cutters are filed... at least I don't.
I like the type of guide that sits atop both the cutters ahead of, and following the raker...
AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
@Whitespider , I think your link got lost in the "stars"...LOL...I have been there picking up imaged on a Google image search...It's no good link if it don't ends with ".jpg" or ".gif" etc
But these guides
The there is another thing too...
the 5--6 inch long guide is 100% flat, while there are bars that are rounded on top...so the guide will ride on two corners at the most....
It would be half the damage if it was riding on four...
But these guides
they are still sitting on the top corner of the cutter...
The there is another thing too...
the 5--6 inch long guide is 100% flat, while there are bars that are rounded on top...so the guide will ride on two corners at the most....
It would be half the damage if it was riding on four...
Oh yes... I know...
What I like about that style (I fixed the image) is it gauges the depth by the relationship between the two cutters on each side of the raker. I'm not so sure it really makes any difference, but it makes more sense in my mind
I sleep better 
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AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
Yes, I see your point, and at least it will rest on two corners instead of one...
If we damage the corner like this, what happens with the chrome plating?
I assume it wants to stretch, but can't and it will crack on one or more spots. And tihs dulled corner will become even mor dull faster, since the reaining crome plating will peel off quickly....
I see a lot of discussions here about what brands of chains that people think is the best, but it really doesn't matter if they aren't perfected in sharpening and maintenance.
If we damage the corner like this, what happens with the chrome plating?
I assume it wants to stretch, but can't and it will crack on one or more spots. And tihs dulled corner will become even mor dull faster, since the reaining crome plating will peel off quickly....
I see a lot of discussions here about what brands of chains that people think is the best, but it really doesn't matter if they aren't perfected in sharpening and maintenance.
lol...well since you're sleeping well these days then maybe I should shut my big mouth...that wouldn't be very interactive or fun for me though ...lolOh yes... I know...
What I like about that style (I fixed the image) is it gauges the depth by the relationship between the two cutters on each side of the raker. I'm not so sure it really makes any difference, but it makes more sense in my mind
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Damaged leading edge? I'll address the op in another post with my 2 cents worth. This is what I think; Although the gauge you choose to use looks of good quality it looks the same as stihl brand. I have bought the longer ones that were made in Taiwan years ago(what a joke) the file carves them out right a way.
Like a new chain the cutters should be even right, therefore your gauge would have three points of contact So on that new chain using that gauge you will get your .025 Now say you have filed some teeth a considerabale amount more over time due to rocks ect.
If that raker you are filling has a low tooth (with that style) now you will have a true 2 point contact creating a higher than .025 bite. Now you can see where this is going.
In all theory it can only work consistently in a perfect world. Maybe you eyeball all your teeth and keep them even?Much like many guys do that have never gauged.
Many guys are dam good at it too but thats what a proper gauge dose, It gauges every raker to its tooth.
The first time I bought one of those I thought it was good and easy to use but like you,I wasn't satisfied with the .025 depth all the time. I DID recommend it for a starter one as its easy to use. It wasn't until I lost the one I use now and ended up with this kind as thats all they had, then did I realize It couldn't fix my chain from walking. I had to throw on another chain, what an insult to my ability but it was the guage I confirmed later.
That chain was pretty new too.I got my regular one and gauged that chain and it went strait as an arrow. Needless to say,I would no longer recommend it.
I use this one.. when I
teach guys to use it I tell them all"Its kinda like kissing your little sister. .
Its awkward at first but you do it long enough..you'll get used to it" no I'm serious lol
AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
I went a logging show yesterday, and I talked to a few people about this, and some of the most experienced loggers and competitors, eliminate the rakers from their chains. They have a feel for how to keep their saw RPM at max torque when cutting....
Starting from scratch with a new chain, and just doing regular maintenance sharpening, you really do not need a gauge, just count the flat file strokes, and observe the size of the flat-file "footprint" on top of the raker.
That gauge you are showing is the one I started using more than 30 years ago, but now when I am not a daily user anymore, I have skipped the gauge and just do the eyeball thing. Good enough for my little firewood hobby...But I do enjoy having as sharp as possible...And as you point out, nothing annoys more than when you can't make a straight cut...
Seriously? That is interesting. I would like to see that in action; and try it myself. I have taken rakers too low (by accident) in the past and it sucked for me cutting. I can't imagine NO rakers.
Back to the OP, NO on rotating the file. Don't see any advantage, only problems, as already pointed out in post #7. I did love the effects you put in the video---very impressive.
What exactly do you mean by no rakers. I am with Hinerman and cant see how no rakers would work out?
Appsolutey! In a perfect world, if cutters were always the same. I have no problem with free handing consistant depths and angles. I did a lot of thinning (spacing) in my earlier days with low rakers and rocky ground So it will always be the cutters on the outside (right side) that are going to hit. It was not worth my time to file the cutters down evenly as I was making about $30 - $55 per gas tank on most contracts. It just cut good until it didn't and I'd replace the chain. When I started cutting bigger wood and learning how to use and file & sharpen for the dogs, is when I realy
learnt all aspects of filing&sharpening To this day,and 26 years pro, I have never evened out my cutters. I believe there is an easier and better way. I don't believe there is many pro fallers using a round on the coast that don't guage?
What I find ...it dosen't matter how long you have done it.
If you know its a new bar and you've checked it with a rail puller and its not cutting straight then you will start doubting your filing and sharpening . (Like I did with the top style gauge) I'm I guy that probably could be dam good at it too...if I took the time to even my cutters.
But first time there was a problem I'd be thinking I missed something or got something twice.
I do see a lot of fallers in the interior that don't guage and they have perfect cuts/stumps, its impressive and make me think it is possible to do in big wood? Faller friend that Ive cut with alot in Northern activities says he can tell by the shine as to high ones. Stuff I don't need to think about..lol
I still only use about half my cutters up and then replace my chain. Reasoning? In my experience for my application, A worn chain to me is about the revolutions and not the teeth at all. I ALWAYS run bars, sprokets and guides in top shape,with proper chain tensioning. Its a 'game of Thousandths
If its comming off more frequently one day than It did the day before I'll reconize that and not beat up my good gear also having to stop to sharpen damaged cutters.
Moreover ,Another disadvantage of maximizing chains with gauges in activities like bucking where one may be able to utilize the cutter to the end but the guage becomes less affective although the cutter may be even. Do you know why? The teeter toter efect. Think of the pivit point/rivet.
When the tooth is new and in attack mode its on the high end of the teeter toter (not sure if thats the teeter or the toter the only think I knew about them as a toddler was you fell fast on your arse and It hurt, thus instilling a valuable lesson.
'know who you have on the other end of your 'teeter toter'
Anyways.. it pivots up to the wood but when the tooth gets short as in past the rivit then it pivets away from the wood.
Now in order for that cutter to cut .030 you would have to remove about double you started with at some point past the rivet.
Pretty sure the OP is talking about 'removing the rakers without a guage. Not removing them completely, that dosent fit with what the giys he talked to are saying about maximizing revs. its there between the lines guys.
Just a wording 'typo with out a doudt
I have a couple of chains that I've completely removed the rakers with a small cutoff wheel... and I also increase the angle of the top plate. Cutting softer wood, such as Silver Maple, fir, White Cedar and the like they rip through like greased lightening. They also work well for bucking smallish (say, 10 inches or less) harder wood, like oak... zing... zing... zing. They don't work for felling... as soon as you hook your dogs in a try to pivot they bite too much and stop the chain. And in anything dead 'n' dry they run really rough... scary rough.
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No $hit...lol
Talk about chomping through your wood.
so you read the post and you just had to run out and try it eh....lol jk
Very interesting to say the least.
With a ported 372 or with a 'Big block' too in Cottonwood using the dogs I can just buck with a $hit hook, gauged at .030, The saw will clutch out trying to do a Humboldt.
AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
WOW. I am intrigued to say the least. Maybe I will find an old chain and give it a try; but like I said, I have taken them too low before and it sucked balls...Maybe I just don't have the touch; but I'm not ham fisted either. I sold a saw to a friend with a chain I took the rakers too low, not even close to total removal. I will never hear the end of it, he hasn't stopped whining about it ever since.
AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
Loggers back in Sweden in the 1960's though 1974's were felling for logging de-limbers (cut to length processors) in clearcut logging, and they were 100% paid per tree. Many logger took risky shortcuts in saftey to make a great payday. Taking down the rakers was one of them.
After the logger union took all members to a strike in the spring 1975, they negotiated a new deal, with 85% hourly pay and 15% per tree, this because of all accidents and injuries...
I think most of the rakers came back on the chains after that deal...
After the logger union took all members to a strike in the spring 1975, they negotiated a new deal, with 85% hourly pay and 15% per tree, this because of all accidents and injuries...
I think most of the rakers came back on the chains after that deal...
Lol
My apologies to you, Ronaldo and our OP
My bad! Oh and WS for keeping him up at night..
Actually I'm sure I'm not ...If he can sleep after running a saw with no rakers then he can sleep through anything.
We should call him whitefinger. I will let it be known here right now: I would never ever F* with a man that runs a saw with no rakers!!!!!!!! D-D-DAM!
Anyone else...oh and mother too..if your reading this Mum I'm sorry for using your 390xp without permission.
Just joking...I called mom today.
If low rakers break bar rails then what would no rakers do.
Don't think its got anything to do with having meat hooks for hands You wouldn't be able to manipulate it at all.
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Not quite on topic here, but someone mentioned a chain wanting to cut crooked earlier...(at least I think it was this thread) I have had this happen before (actually, have a chain that I need to fix right now that was cuttin hard to the right last time I used it)
Can I assume that when this happens that the chain is cutting toward the dull(er)/damaged side? So like the chain I need to fix now, the teeth on the right side would need more work since it was cuttin to the right?
Can I assume that when this happens that the chain is cutting toward the dull(er)/damaged side? So like the chain I need to fix now, the teeth on the right side would need more work since it was cuttin to the right?
AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
There can be several individual different reasons why a chain does not cut straight.
But one fault on one side and another fault on the other side, then it is hard to tell the direction it would pull.
I am of that opinoin that the Granberg grinder in a joint is the best way to fix a chain with many faults....
Properly setup, it must be very hard to fail with this one...
http://granberg.com/product/g1012xt-precision-grinder
- One side is dull or less sharp than the other
- One side has shorter cutters than the other side
- One side has cutters at different angles than the other side
- One side haa depth gauge higher than the other side
- etc etc
But one fault on one side and another fault on the other side, then it is hard to tell the direction it would pull.
I am of that opinoin that the Granberg grinder in a joint is the best way to fix a chain with many faults....
Properly setup, it must be very hard to fail with this one...
http://granberg.com/product/g1012xt-precision-grinder
