Appalachian Yarding Operations

[bitzer]

I could of swore Hammerlogging was involved in some yarder operations a few years back. Heli for sure. I remember the pictures. Anyway Kylogger- how many guys you have working for/with you? I've cut/skid 10mbf in a day by myself. That was decent timber of course and a shortish skid. Limb and buck for a forwarder though. I was moving. I'm only thinking that raising your current production with the equipment you have and you might be further ahead for now. I would think you would really need to get out some wood to make anything go. From what I understand there is definitely a niche out that way for it. And why not? But like everyone said the guy to do it would need the right equipment, know how, and the experienced crew to make the thing go at all. I would think most dense hardwoods would make a hell of a tail hold. They tried a motorized carriage and two excavators (one at the top and one at the bottom) in the western part of my state. That way they just moved both machines when they needed to move the line. Not enough or long enough hills to really do that full time around here though. Working in a select cut hardwood stand might be kind of tricky as well.

 

[OlympicYJ]

As mentioned slope is good with yarders. You did hit it on the head the overhead of a yarder is a problem with lots of guys. As stated you need enough work out in front of you to justify one. What dictates your yarder and system is terrain and distance. if you only need to hang out about a 1000 feet smaller yarders/yoders can be used. Linkbelt 98's (cranes converted to yarders) are popular in Idaho as they are cheaper than a full blown swing yarder and they generally don't need the reach of bigger yarders. Check your labor and industry rates. Like Hump said here in WA ours are about $20 an hour. I'm willing to guess you probably won't have that high of rate but compared to you're wages in your area it could be really high.

My advice would be to take a trip out here and look at some yarder operations. Contact the logging associations to connect you with loggers. Washington Contract Loggers, Oregon Contract Loggers would be a good start. Maybe if we could see some pics of the type of ground you're looking at? Also some slope numbers could be helpful.

 

[KYLogger]

I remember Hammer talking about it a time or two. I will try to get some pics (if I can figure out how to post em) of the ground we typically have around here. For a good example look up pictures of the Red River Gorge. It is pretty much in my back yard. Slopes range greatly. Generally we log on stuff from 15 to 50-55 percent slope. (my WAG). The steeper stuff gets logged some but, Man the roads! The really good timber is in places inaccessible or impractical to get with a ground skid ding operation. I had to leave 35 acres of BIG hardwood behind last year because it was down below a cliff line probably 100-150 ft high and a third of a mile out. No practical to blast or hoe ram a gap out and not worth the two mile skid down the creek through neighboring landowners. It is situations like this where I think a yarder would be a great idea. Lots of places that have been logged conventionally around here still have timber in rough places such as this.

 

[treeslayer2003]

I think y'all out west are the yarding and rigging pros. that said, i'm not sure it would be practical very many places on this side. I have always played with the idea of like a mini type yarder boom on a skidder. we have no slopes here but we do have some deep gullys that are pretty much off limits to skidders and it would be to much for a skidder to just winch up on its own.
as for a tail hold, a lot of hard wood may pull over as the roots are on top. a really big sweet gum would be ideal.
white oak be better than red.

 

[northmanlogging]

The hard part about skidding is dragging the line out, esp down or up hill, as most of you know. A yarder gets the hard time consuming part of dragging line out of the way and lets gravity or a haulback winch do the work. Excepting of course dragging the strawline out is still mostly done by hand.

What can be done with a skidder, and isn't real difficult, is to piggy back another winch on it usually a hydraulic type, then you can set up a simple spar tree and tail hold. Cold deck a nice fat pile and skid them later, not as fast as hooking and running, but better then fighting steep hills with a tipsy old skidder, and by far cheaper then buying a yarder. Then you only need on sucker in the bushes... I've considered doing this myself, in fact there was a garret for sale out here awhile back that had this setup on it... sold before I had the money together.

The haul back winch can usually have smaller diameter cable on it allowing you to stuff more line on it, then you can take a loose piece and tag it onto the bigger mainline winch. This way you're not limited by how much the poor skidder can carry, (most only fit about 100' of 3/4 or so).

Without going real specific I imaging you could fit 3-400' of 3/8-1/2 line on a mid sized pullmaster, as your haulback, then have the same amount of loose 3/4 for your skyline, hang one block in a nice fat tree run the sky line through it and down to a solid stump or up a tail hold tree, connect the free end to the skidder's main winch, add some kind of carriage and your in business. And you don't necessarily need huge amounts of lift, just enough to get one end of the logs above stumps or other debris,(boulders, rocks, old cars).

The expensive part of this project would probably be the hydraulic winch, and getting the plumbing right on the skidder. Not to mention 1000' of cable...

 

[KYLogger]

For tailhold trees, hickory would work great, as would black gum. Depends on what soil type and depth the tail tree would be in. You can pick up old skidders that are still serviceable enough for the application for 3-4k. Tires would be bald, steering cylinders might leak etc... Getting the additional winch and plumbing would be the trick. Would a shotgun carriage be the best choice? I have alot of climbing experience, ROW clearing, so rigging trees would be no problem. I have a good, well equipped shop. So fabrication should be no problem. With no shovel (we have a Ramer knuckleboom mounted on a C 70 single axle) would it be hard to clear the landing? Only other available equipment are a D4H LGP, a 450E with a winch, and a 440B.

 

[HuskStihl]

I have absolutely no idea what allay'all are talkin' bout, but you're all very generous with your time and knowledge

 

[slowp]

But the strawline comes in sections, so you can pack a coil or two at a time, hook them together and hook it to the skyline or mainline and the yarder does the hefty work. That's where you need an experienced hand, to lay that out ahead of time and reduce the shut down time.

Picture time, here is a hooktender about to pack a coil uphill and get the strawline strung out ahead of time. They were going to downhill yard


And here's a crew feeding it down the hill for uphill yarding.

 

[KYLogger]

I really appreciate the pics and input!

 

[northmanlogging]

ebay there is a braden for 3500 with 1000' of 5/8, a gearamatic 11, that might do ya and a few others for around the same price, just search for a hydraulic winch and ignore pretty much all of the mile marker stuff.

Setting up the landing is tricky, the spar tree needs to be far enough from the edge to still have solid support, and then be tall enough to get some lift over the edge, This is where a dedicated tower really shines, good spar trees are hard to find... even out here... just use lots of guy lines if you can...

If you can dig up an old christi carriage that would be the way to go, other wise a simple shotgun carriage always works. Never seen the inside of a christi so I couldn't tell ya how they work, although the bull prick is what releases the haulback to be pulled out by the ground crew, and I think it holds the carriage in place until the haulback releases it to go up the hill. Probably just some sort of cam action thing...

from there its a matter of putting the log loader close enough to grab logs as they come in and clear the shoot, but not so close as to be in the way, then push the road up to where trucks can back in to be loaded, You'll find out real quick why we have piggy back trailers out here, on steep ground you don't have the option of building a loop road, you will have to turn the trucks around and back them into the loader. If your using a tree you'll have to work the guy lines around the road, so they don't get in the way of the loader or the trucks.

I would still advice you to look into picking up a used koller, they have all the bells and whistles to make yarder logging easy, modifying a skidder works but its by no means the best way possible. The small yarders also come with a dedicated tower, that will be 10 times safer than any spar tree.

Used I've seen em from 16k up to 60k, although there is a skagit bu-80 near hear for 38k or so... then you would have a full blown yarder, with lots of ponies and lots of big drums, and lots of **** to go wrong...

And really you should come out and see a full yarder operation, spend a few days poking around and asking questions, while its standard to be cagey and suspicious of anyone coming around asking questions... someone on here should be able to put you in touch with a crew willing to humor you for a few days, that and it is pretty out here...

 

[KYLogger]

Thanks alot! I know I can "rig" something up that would work for a situation in a pinch but I think a dedicated tower is the way to go as well. Here is something I think would fit the niche perfectly. http://www.mylittlesalesman.com/ForSale/Details/474135/1976_ECHO-OTHER-Yarders

 

[slowp]

This is a good site.

http://www.vannattabros.com/iron15.html

 

[hammerlogging]

I have worked with and around several cable systems, jammers, medium(big to us) and smaller yarders, skylines out between 1200' (small) to 2300' (big.. for us) Jammers too. real modern ones, not the old truck ones. I am a firm believer in their operational advantages and economic advantages. The knowledge of someone like Humptulips is extremely valuable.

The challenges are just what the lit says. Appalachian timber is mostly suited to smaller yarders, rarely woupld you need to hang a skyline out more than 1600 feet and you'd usually only be yarding in the 1200' or less range. You have to think about volume per setting, settings per day, volume per day, and crew size. If you are running 5 mbf/acre and 7 mbf/ setting and you need 10 mbf to break even, you'll have to reset every day within working hours to get your volume. I've cut 15 mbf/acre plus, but I've also cut plenty "thinnings" as low as 4. (high grading junk stands) If you cost Y to log and there is no reason not to put billy bob on it with his 27 year ol dozer for X, who doesn't know his operating cost anyhow, why would a mill choose you? Maybe there are some places where a premium is there- FS ground, intelligent long term private landownerships, sensitive sites, but mostly, in Appalachia, its do as you please whenever, wherever. So, cable remains an undeveloped asset.

I could talk to you all day about this, and am still committed to making cable a more present alternative in this region. But, its not an easy path, but I hate dozers. Even if they end up subsidizing my yarder exploits....

 

[hammerlogging]

The machine you posted is an ecologger. Yes, its appropriate for this region. Here downhill, even from opposing slopes, would be a real advantage as there is rarely access from above. this means a haulback, at least. I think an ecologger 2 has a haulback.

Yoders are generally well suited to be paired with a real yarder to pick up corners. They are generally minimum 35k pounds but more often are in the 50 ton range, once outfitted. thats oversize and overweight. just so you don't need guylines. How are you going to get that across those last 2 bridges into the job, and are you going to build the road to landing for this machine? No.

Also to consider, rarely will a haul truck make it to the yarder, which means you will have to swing stems to a real landing witha skidder or something. We just dont have the infrastructure, unless you're in coal or gas country, mayube you are, in which case, youn have a real advantage.

 

[KYLogger]

I appreciate your insight and knowledge Hammer, I know well of what you speak. Especially is western NC as anything like east central KY. Gotta love the "Billy Bob" mentality! I am one of those dozer and skidder outfits, and will probably always have that side of my operation going. I can also relate to the do whatever, whenever practices. For the most part if a landowner sells timber around here they NEED the money, care of the land is an afterthought (if thought of at all) I truly believe there is a place for cable jobs an I believe that it can be profitable. There is just alot to consider......

 

[KYLogger]

Not in coal or gas country. So that counts out good haul roads. I had not considered the weight class machine it would take for an effective yoder. And haul road building to the tops of most hills in this area would be wholly impractical for the volume of timber per set. It is very hard to come across the Eco Loggers it seems. More discussion on this matter is warranted.

 

[slowp]

Sounds like a mainline and haulback come with it. A Christy carriage needs the help of gravity to work, but you probably know that.
I found this.

 

[KYLogger]

I saw that one too. It needed a little TLC, but unfortunately it was headed for the big scrapyard in the sky!

 

[wowzers]

Not sure if your still looking but the FS came out with plans for a couple of mini yarders. You can write the people in Missoula and they will mail you a free set of tech drawings for their Bitteroot and Clearwater yarder.

 

[wowzers]

Here are some pics of them. I bet slowp could tell you more about them.