Arborist and protesters
- Thread starter CaveSaw
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Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tree Killer!!!
It's like you are a mercenary or something.
Why I'll just bet you'd probably mow lawns, whip weeds, or clear brush (lower plant life forms, to be sure) for the right amount of money. How can you sleep at night!
Oh the humanity!
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RedlineIt
ArboristSite Guru
Excellent post clearance!
The most emotional disturance I've ever had to endure on the job was the removal of an absolutely perfect, never touched, never pruned fastigiate Gingko Biloba to make room for a new deck. Now, I've got a soft spot for Gingkoes, they've found an evolutional niche where they have survived unchanged for 500 centuries, due in part to cultivation by buddhist monks. I also used to bet in a pool on the day of leaf drop for a particular Gingko on Mavis Rd., and I'd done a three year study on the growth rate of 22 Gingkoes planted on a street in Southern Ontario. (Don't want to overblow that, it took the morning, each fall for three years, my data went along with others to rounder heads in an office.)
But it was the biggest Ginkgo I'd seen to that point, it was perfect, and I cut it down.
Easy removal. 
Can't recall if my emotional disturbance lasted longer than it took the chipper disc to spin down or if I'd forgotten while I fed the chipper. That's a toss up.
I am an arborist, but I am also a climber for hire. You want it gorgeous, I can do that. You want it gone, here's your pemits, I happily do that too.
There is a new interchange going in near me. Haven't been involved but there have been several trucks nicely loaded headed up Island, protesters in trees evicted by climbing RCMP's (wish I'd seen THAT) cops on the ground in flak gear, with dogs, routing the protesters out.
Now the protesters have started vandalizing equipment on the ground, painting windshields at night. The contractors will work around that.
Permits for this are in place, there has been fully a year to meet and voice concerns.
Done.
RedlineIt
True here too, mate.
Cutting on demand is aerial grunt work, same as to mow lawns, whip weeds, or clear brush for the right amount of money.
Like **** sapiens evolved out of the treedwelling :monkey: , your business evolved out of treecudding by orders, and up to tree care by choice.
moray, those 9th graders are way cool. I'll bet they didn't mind that 2-hour detention, and were much admired by their classmates, who lacked the courage to sit down for what they believed in! :blob6:
The Child is Father to the Man.
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Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
True here too, mate.
Cutting on demand is aerial grunt work, same as to mow lawns, whip weeds, or clear brush for the right amount of money.
Like **** sapiens evolved out of the treedwelling :monkey: , your business evolved out of treecudding by orders, and up to tree care by choice.
moray, those 9th graders are way cool. I'll bet they didn't mind that 2-hour detention, and were much admired by their classmates, who lacked the courage to sit down for what they believed in! :blob6:
The Child is Father to the Man.
LOL! It's all grunt work brother, just like they are all plants, some are just more glorified out of proportion than others.
A truly professional arborist, just as a truly professional lawn care specialist or landscaper, is just as capable and ready (that is physically, mentally, and emotionally) to perform all aspects of said profession to customer satisfaction, whether that be care or elimination.
Anything more high minded than that is simple religion IMHO, just like that whole man evolving from monkeys fad, or my favorite...global warming...pure unadulterated claptrap...fodder for the masses.
Are you assuming that all the classmates were cowards because they didn't sit around a tree? How can you presume any or all of the classmates believed in saving the tree in the first place? I believe the detentions to be a novel gesture in the spirit that you must be prepared to face all the consequences of being a protester. That seems to be a good lesson, not necessarily meant as a deterrent.
P.S. Not that it really matters, but I doubt that these kids came up with this familiar stunt on their own. It could happen, however, someone is usually in the shadows on a project like this. I'll bet more than likely someone was vicariously reliving something or some time through their kid and then that child became the ringleader. Like I said, not that it matters. I'm glad at least that the tree was sound and worth saving in that situation.
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I think you guys are reading way more philosophical crap into this argument than you are common sense.
Engineers and architechts are noted for lack of common sense
Beautifull old trees take a long time to grow, hence the term old
Tree guys get paid to remove trees-clouded judgement?
Government lacks common sense more than anyone
The protesters and hippys aren't always wrong. Look at the
organic food available in the big stores now and the rush to
do something for the enviroment-global warming etc.
I think it boils down to being able to have an open mind not letting
personal prejudice cloud our judgement. Not always an easy thing.
Engineers and architechts are noted for lack of common sense
Beautifull old trees take a long time to grow, hence the term old
Tree guys get paid to remove trees-clouded judgement?
Government lacks common sense more than anyone
The protesters and hippys aren't always wrong. Look at the
organic food available in the big stores now and the rush to
do something for the enviroment-global warming etc.
I think it boils down to being able to have an open mind not letting
personal prejudice cloud our judgement. Not always an easy thing.
or Professional. as Wikipedia defines it, " (capital P)Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their **independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification."
Tradesmen and others, like gigolos and dope dealers, can act small p professionally as they Keep the Customer Satisfied (remember the Paul Simon song?), but Timber is a Professional because he is independent.
Can you separate religion from the rest of life? If so, is it relevant? and were you supposed to bring that up in this forum--watch the rules!
Not at all; the ones who believed in saving the tree but did not act were more concerned with keeping the teacher and the parent and everyone else satisfied, instead of satisfying the ultimate need for truth, justice and the arboricultural way.
Oh, and 18 years later that big pine is still standing. When it boils down to it is any big tree really 100% safe. Lightening could strike a perfectly solid tree and cause it to land on something or somebody. Should we cut down all big trees to reduce the hazard?
Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
or Professional. as Wikipedia defines it, " (capital P)Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their **independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification."
Tradesmen and others, like gigolos and dope dealers, can act small p professionally as they Keep the Customer Satisfied (remember the Paul Simon song?), but Timber is a Professional because he is independent.
Can you separate religion from the rest of life? If so, is it relevant? and were you supposed to bring that up in this forum--watch the rules!Not at all; the ones who believed in saving the tree but did not act were more concerned with keeping the teacher and the parent and everyone else satisfied, instead of satisfying the ultimate need for truth, justice and the arboricultural way.
Can you?
You were the first one bringing up religions....i.e. evolution. Just as great a farce as global warming...another great recent religion brought to you by those that tried touting global cooling as an end to their means not so long ago. How soon we forget. Like I said, fodder for the masses.
At any rate, some people make a religion around trees. I'm simply saying that, IMHO, anything more high minded and aloof than considering the entire spectrum of Professional tree work as valid is religious. In other words, if one believes that they are more sanctified, or more noble, or more validated because they are above certain tasks or aspects of the profession, that is fine, but it resembles something more along the lines of religious zeal than professionalism.
I suppose that there is room for that in a blue collar field, but it's borrowed at best. It's all grunt work, some more glorified in certain minds than others, perhaps, but grunt work all the same. And yes, a need for professionals at every corner of it.
I'm not in reference to fly by night hacksters, those are beyond the scope of this profession and aside from my point. At best they are more akin to the dope peddlers and what not you refer to that keep an 'ignorant' customer satisfied. Howbeit, let's stay focused shall we.
I'm talking about customers that are either knowledgeable, or in the process of being educated by a good arborist. Careful, I didn't say converted to anyone's ideology (does that word make you feel more comfortable?) or religion. I'm talking just the facts.
Now then, I wonder, if one of these customers, that keep good arborists like Timber "independent" (see the underlying dependence), wanted a tree removed, simply because, what is a guy above this sort of thing to do? Argue? I doubt it. Might try persuasion, but in the end most are going to be the paid worker that they are and do the job and keep the customer, or risk giving the job and maybe the customer to an arborist that can handle all the tasks, physically, mentally, and emotionally.
I love Trees, brother, but I can't afford to make a religion out of them. Perhaps some can, but are they really an arborist first, or an idealist.
A good friend of mine comes to me and says, "What's with all this tree work, come work for me and run my business. What can you possibly want with chopping down trees all the time?"
I told him, "You don't understand, I'm interested in tree care so that I don't have to chop them down all of the time. I'd rather care for them, that is my interest."
He was dumb struck for a moment, and then understood.
But chop them down I will. Plant them I will. Care for them I will. Make a religion out of them I won't.
Touching, very touching. Sounds borrowed though.
That's ok, we do it all the time, don't we. How many students believed in saving the tree, now that we have it narrowed down?
Are you saying that one that maintains a belief or an opinion, but does not act in a certain way, is by default a coward?
So then, by this flavor of rationale all of the students and residence at Berkley that would rather not see 38 out of 100 trees be removed are cowards? Just these few in the trees are courageous?
Funny, not much talk about Berkley since the whole truth was revealed.
Oh well, I like the story of these six kids better by far anyway.
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Grace Tree
Impossible Access
Bigus Termitius---Great post.
Phil
Phil
Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
Many arborists will walk away from dumb removals; call them idealists if you want. If we're Professional, we are independent, and able to walk. You are right though; we all need money. I often bid $9,999.99 for dumb removals. I sometimes do them at a fair price, if I gain concessions elsewhere.
You are right; ideals do not always rule, but they are a good guide to business growth and other rewards.
Tradesmen may always have to Keep the Customer Satisfied, but that approach also describes the world's oldest "profession", or Paul Simon's dope dealer.
"truth, justice and the arboricultural way.
Touching, very touching. Sounds borrowed though." Not only meant to be touching, but it is the most profitable long term approach, because independent Professionals can get a LOT more $$$ per hour than tradesmen.
O and You are right again; I did paraphrase it, substituting for "arboricultural" for"American".
Gee but its great to be back home
Home is where I want to be.
Ive been on the road so long my friend,
And if you came along
I know you couldnt disagree.
Chorus
Its the same old story
Everywhere I go,
I get slandered,
Libeled,
I hear words I never heard
In the bible
And Im on step ahead of the shoe shine
Two steps away from the county line
Just trying to keep my customers satisfied,
Satisfied.
Deputy sheriff said to me
Tell me what you come here for, boy.
You better get your bags and flee.
Youre in trouble boy,
And youre heading into more.
You are right; ideals do not always rule, but they are a good guide to business growth and other rewards.
Tradesmen may always have to Keep the Customer Satisfied, but that approach also describes the world's oldest "profession", or Paul Simon's dope dealer.
"truth, justice and the arboricultural way.
Touching, very touching. Sounds borrowed though." Not only meant to be touching, but it is the most profitable long term approach, because independent Professionals can get a LOT more $$$ per hour than tradesmen.
O and You are right again; I did paraphrase it, substituting for "arboricultural" for"American".
Gee but its great to be back home
Home is where I want to be.
Ive been on the road so long my friend,
And if you came along
I know you couldnt disagree.
Chorus
Its the same old story
Everywhere I go,
I get slandered,
Libeled,
I hear words I never heard
In the bible
And Im on step ahead of the shoe shine
Two steps away from the county line
Just trying to keep my customers satisfied,
Satisfied.
Deputy sheriff said to me
Tell me what you come here for, boy.
You better get your bags and flee.
Youre in trouble boy,
And youre heading into more.
D Mc
ArboristSite Operative
This thread has certainly generated a lot of discussion. Very interesting listening to you smart guys argue (oops, I meant discuss) such topics.
One thing that was mentioned that I feel needs correcting that tree work is not, and should not be, merely grunt work. Certainly our profession is very physically demanding and requires muscle to back up the brain. But a removal technician can be a joy to watch and even the lay person can appreciate the fluidness of their movements. When the topic goes to complex trimming situations, an element of artistry is required and indeed necessary and the lacking component when we notice tree work that is done "by the book" but still somehow doesn't look right.
D Mc
One thing that was mentioned that I feel needs correcting that tree work is not, and should not be, merely grunt work. Certainly our profession is very physically demanding and requires muscle to back up the brain. But a removal technician can be a joy to watch and even the lay person can appreciate the fluidness of their movements. When the topic goes to complex trimming situations, an element of artistry is required and indeed necessary and the lacking component when we notice tree work that is done "by the book" but still somehow doesn't look right.
D Mc
Thats it, I'm gettin on a plane and I'm gonna cut them f#@$%#@ trees myself- for free !Many arborists will walk away from dumb removals; call them idealists if you want. If we're Professional, we are independent, and able to walk. You are right though; we all need money. I often bid $9,999.99 for dumb removals. I sometimes do them at a fair price, if I gain concessions elsewhere.
You are right; ideals do not always rule, but they are a good guide to business growth and other rewards.
Tradesmen may always have to Keep the Customer Satisfied, but that approach also describes the world's oldest "profession", or Paul Simon's dope dealer.
"truth, justice and the arboricultural way.
Touching, very touching. Sounds borrowed though." Not only meant to be touching, but it is the most profitable long term approach, because independent Professionals can get a LOT more $$$ per hour than tradesmen.
O and You are right again; I did paraphrase it, substituting for "arboricultural" for"American".
Gee but its great to be back home
Home is where I want to be.
Ive been on the road so long my friend,
And if you came along
I know you couldnt disagree.
Chorus
Its the same old story
Everywhere I go,
I get slandered,
Libeled,
I hear words I never heard
In the bible
And Im on step ahead of the shoe shine
Two steps away from the county line
Just trying to keep my customers satisfied,
Satisfied.
Deputy sheriff said to me
Tell me what you come here for, boy.
You better get your bags and flee.
Youre in trouble boy,
And youre heading into more.
If you want to hug a tree, buy some property with trees on it and hug away. If a land owner wants me to cut down a healthy tree for an unspecified reason, so be it. I will always advise other wise if there might be another solution, try to educate, or listen to their reasoning. Most of time they ask me " what would you do if it were your tree ? " 9 out of 10 times they listen to your suggestions, but some times you can't always see the H.O.'s ( land owner ) big picture. God bless America !!!
:greenchainsaw:
:greenchainsaw: CaveSaw
ArboristSite Member
Tree sitters
The University brought in arborists again to remove ropes, etc from the trees where the tree sitters are protesting the stadium expansion in Berkeley. I'm not trying to start political debate but it seems like an interesting day in the life for an arborist and I usually don't see arborists referred to as such in the media. A reminder that these trees were originally planted by the University at the time that they built the stadium that they now want to expand. There was action today because there will be a court ruling on building tomorrow and it was expected that more tree sitters would be showing up. One protester was removed after she bit an arborist.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/17/BAEC11AJ2P.DTL&tsp=1
The University brought in arborists again to remove ropes, etc from the trees where the tree sitters are protesting the stadium expansion in Berkeley. I'm not trying to start political debate but it seems like an interesting day in the life for an arborist and I usually don't see arborists referred to as such in the media. A reminder that these trees were originally planted by the University at the time that they built the stadium that they now want to expand. There was action today because there will be a court ruling on building tomorrow and it was expected that more tree sitters would be showing up. One protester was removed after she bit an arborist.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/17/BAEC11AJ2P.DTL&tsp=1
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Did I not say to send in the dogs and cops with clubs months back? Well? Now look, one of the mutts has bitten a fellow treeman, shoulda listened to old Clearance. And the trees are still there.....Thanks for the update CaveSaw
Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
Better test for rabies and the like.
I was waiting for this one to liven up again-sweet! I hope they whip them dirty hippies up real proper like, lol.
CaveSaw
ArboristSite Member
Trees coming down finally
The University finally got approval to take down the trees. The protesters appealed but it was denied. So the arborists got sent in today. I loved the part about the arborists "while the protesters swatted them with sticks." Just another interesting day in the tree field?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/05/BAEE12P1DP.DTL
http://www.dailycal.org/article/102486/trees_cut_down_near_uc_berkeley_stadium
The University finally got approval to take down the trees. The protesters appealed but it was denied. So the arborists got sent in today. I loved the part about the arborists "while the protesters swatted them with sticks." Just another interesting day in the tree field?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/05/BAEE12P1DP.DTL
http://www.dailycal.org/article/102486/trees_cut_down_near_uc_berkeley_stadium
