arborist vs. shmuck.

[treeman82]

Now you'd think that in a battle of arborist vs. shmuck the arborist would win.. man would you be wrong in this case.

I did some work for a guy last year, nice guy, paid without any troubles. Ground some stumps, and cut the grass once. He wanted to have some tree work done and some planting. I impressed him with my knowledge, and he told me that the account was mine for the planting and trees. Told the guy to take down some norway maples, leave a bunch of spruce trees for screening, clear out a junky area and plant more spruce instead of building a rock wall. We said that we'd do a little work in August of last year... so I went there in August to talk about starting the job... "Oh, school for the kids... money... let's try for February." Sent a holiday card saying thanks for your business, I look forward to dealing with you in the new year. Went there in February... money again. I offered to work per day... one here... one there. He said he'd call me when he's ready. No problem. Today I drove by, this schmuck company was there doing some work. Instead of leaving the spruce for screening, they cut at least 1 down. Instead of cutting down the norway maples in the yard, they pruned them. Instead of clearing out an area by the road and planting more spruce, they thinned out the area SEVERELY, making it easier for noise to intrude on the property. To put it gently, I was NOT happy.

 

[newguy18]

Now you'd think that in a battle of arborist vs. shmuck the arborist would win.. man would you be wrong in this case.

I did some work for a guy last year, nice guy, paid without any troubles. Ground some stumps, and cut the grass once. He wanted to have some tree work done and some planting. I impressed him with my knowledge, and he told me that the account was mine for the planting and trees. Told the guy to take down some norway maples, leave a bunch of spruce trees for screening, clear out a junky area and plant more spruce instead of building a rock wall. We said that we'd do a little work in August of last year... so I went there in August to talk about starting the job... "Oh, school for the kids... money... let's try for February." Sent a holiday card saying thanks for your business, I look forward to dealing with you in the new year. Went there in February... money again. I offered to work per day... one here... one there. He said he'd call me when he's ready. No problem. Today I drove by, this schmuck company was there doing some work. Instead of leaving the spruce for screening, they cut at least 1 down. Instead of cutting down the norway maples in the yard, they pruned them. Instead of clearing out an area by the road and planting more spruce, they thinned out the area SEVERELY, making it easier for noise to intrude on the property. To put it gently, I was NOT happy.

Don't sweat it it was his own fault.When he comes bacj asking you to fix thier mess charge him more.

 

[treeman82]

I wouldn't do any business with that guy now. Besides, they are gonna wreck things to the point where it won't be fixable... I mean there is a HUGE arborvitae in the back yard that he was thinking about removing. I talked him out of it, and was hoping to do some light pruning, along with creating a bigger mulch bed for it. Odds are this schmuck company will get him to remove it.

I don't have a problem with removing crap trees regardless of how big they are... like the 40" DBH silver maple which was planted when the house was built probably. However a 100+ year old arborvitae in relatively good shape, not near any major targets... I have a BIG problem with removing that. Just like another customer who wants to remove a 25" DBH black oak which was pampered over the last 20+ years by the previous owner.

 

[arboralliance]

Sheesh...

I wouldn't do any business with that guy now. Besides, they are gonna wreck things to the point where it won't be fixable... I mean there is a HUGE arborvitae in the back yard that he was thinking about removing. I talked him out of it, and was hoping to do some light pruning, along with creating a bigger mulch bed for it. Odds are this schmuck company will get him to remove it.

I don't have a problem with removing crap trees regardless of how big they are... like the 40" DBH silver maple which was planted when the house was built probably. However a 100+ year old arborvitae in relatively good shape, not near any major targets... I have a BIG problem with removing that. Just like another customer who wants to remove a 25" DBH black oak which was pampered over the last 20+ years by the previous owner.

Keep fighting the good fight man, such a darn shame when all of that happens after your advice seemed so well taken hey...:bang:

 

[Sunrise Guy]

It's frustrating as all get-out when you do great work for someone and then see that they have absolutely no appreciation for your expertise and no loyalty to you, whatsoever. In another life, I was a very busy tattoo artist. I could work my butt off on a beautiful piece for someone and then, within the next year or so, this same person would come back to my shop with a monstrosity on their body and want me to fix it. When I asked why they didn't wait on the new piece and come to me for the work, I'd get an answer along the lines of, "Well, I was out and about and I saw this shop and, well, you know-------" Ultimately, many, many people are just plain STUPID. They act without thinking, and then are sorry when they finally realize what a mistake they've made. Your old client will possibly wise up, possibly not, but it will be too late for the trees, unfortunately. Just chalk it all up to the ignorance inherent in the public at large.

 

[rfwoodvt]

No need to be frustrated....time lost, I know, opportunity missed and then having to watch what may be the wrong solution implemented......never enjoyable

I find it always best to chalk it up to a lesson learned. The good news is that the tuition you paid was only in time.

It would be difficult to honestly say "I'd never do work for them again" because now that you have a better idea of what the customer is like and wants, you can better prepare yourself to meet their needs and not get snookered.

Remember, fool me once....

My guess is that the customer really liked what you initially said and bought into the idea completely. Then they had the nagging doubts and went with thier gut.

Or more likely they initially heard you, and thot it a good idea but then realized that you hadn't offered what they wanted.

Since it appears that they told you what they wanted but you talked them into a different scenario, albeit a likely better scenario, they may have decided that you were not the right guy for them.

No Harm, No Foul, just not a good match.

Of course I'm speculating, but it is something to consider.

 

[CoreyTMorine]

My guess is that the customer really liked what you initially said and bought into the idea completely. Then they had the nagging doubts and went with thier gut.

Or more likely they initially heard you, and thot it a good idea but then realized that you hadn't offered what they wanted.

Since it appears that they told you what they wanted but you talked them into a different scenario, albeit a likely better scenario, they may have decided that you were not the right guy for them.

No Harm, No Foul, just not a good match.

Of course I'm speculating, but it is something to consider.

Very wise word mr. rfwoodvt

Back when I was a younger feller selling x-mas trees with my dad he told me a story about my grandfather. He said “Now your grandfather, if asked about what tree a customer should buy, always had a few favorites of his own, and he would rush over and grab one for the customer.

Grandfather “This is a lovely tree, I think that you’ll be very happy with it.”

Customer “Well, no that’s not exactly what we are looking for.”

Grandfather “What can you possibly mean its not what your looking for, its one of my favorite trees here on the lot.”

The conversation would often continue along this vein all while your grandfather was trying to tie the unwanted tree onto some hapless families car. Lol. The moral of this story is that while you may have some success selling people that which you think they want, you’ll have far greater success finding out what it is that they really want and selling it to them.

 

[treeseer]

This happens to me a lot; clients cannot make the leap from their original plan based on little knowldege of tree value to mine. It salves the sting a bit to know I was paid for my time making the plan, but still sad to see trees wasted and abused.

i agree with wood (hey rich you comin down this winter?) re lesson learned; better communication on my part, knowing when to scale back and present alternatives and compromises would prevent a lot of these cases. We can't win em all, but we need to win more.:help:

Corey I love your sig.

 

[rfwoodvt]

Hey Guy!

As long as you are inviting, I'd be happy to! How's late Feb Early March?

Wanna Shoot for 4 or 5 days this time?

Jake is hoping to visit again too.

Now, if you are really adventurous, we have a new climber working for us who is just gobbling up any and all new info/learning ops he can get! (and since our season doesn't include that part of winter he will be jonesin' for a chance to climb!)

Looking forward to seeing your presentation this fall BTW. Lets get together for dinner or lunch if we can!

 

[treeseer]

TCI Expo is always fun. Hartford CT, Short drive for you this year! But be warned, "Restoration Pruning" (Funny thing; I just started the ppt yesterday)will cover roots and bark and repairing topped trees like those pecans we did too; can't spend 90 more minutes on storm damage or I'd go nuts. :deadhorse:

and feb 26-mar 4 the penthouse suite is open. I'll start booking the work--it'll be a mix of climbing on nice days and also the bottom half of the tree.

re schmucks, the $ alibi for holding off is usually bs--it just means they are not sold on the concept yet. Pictures and data and apprai$ed value and referrals to clients and trees cared for in the way you propose can help seal the deal sometimes.

 

[rfwoodvt]

The moral of this story is that while you may have some success selling people that which you think they want, you’ll have far greater success finding out what it is that they really want and selling it to them.

The thing many folks forget is that selling means finding and providing solutions to a customer's needs.

To often, myself included, we think of selling as foisting something unwanted and unnecessary onto an unwilling buyer and convincing them that they want it so that they take it.

This couldn't be further from the truth about selling. That is why it becomes so important to LISTEN to your customer and find out what it is they are trying to accomplish or what it is that they truly want.

sometimes it takes some good interviewing techniques to get that info, but it is worthwhile.

Mrs Jones calls and says she wants all her Maple trees topped. Rather than jump all over her, a conversation should begin. "Mrs Jones, just so I can understand better, can you tell me what your goals are in having the trees topped?" then LISTEN!

Educating her on Topping at this point is not what you want to do! Wait until you are on site looking at the trees with Mrs Jones and ask here again what her hopes and goals are. Then explain her options, including the topping one and tell her the benefits of each and why one might be better than another. Also tell her why one might be worse than another.

People don't change thier minds, they make new decisions based on new information and quite frankly to use a cliche' they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

So, unless you have addressed several of thier needs to begin with (mainly listening!) all the edumacation you give is useless. However, once they have accepted you as really being on thier side, they can come to the proper choice (not topping in this case) and it will be thier idea and decision.

Voila! you have just sold them exactly what the wanted, needed and were looking for.

And there will still be times where it is not a good match. There is nothing that can be done about that!

(Will chek the calendar for that week TreeSeer, suspect that our kids are off school that week...might create a problem. Anyhoo, will be in touch.)

 

[lxt]

what I like is when you consult with the home owner, advise them on what is best(because they dont know, thus reason your here) they take it all in & agree. "I`ll call you within a couple days, but Im sure you got the job" Yeah right!! drive by a few weeks later or while work is going on & guess what?

Yep, the home owner takes your game plan for their job & tells some other brainless A$$ that this is what he wants done, now this contractor looks good because the plan he implemented was yours, etc.etc.

This is what bums me out in our trade, no respect, customers want cheap not good!(most anyhow) they will dicker & pit each contractor against one another, they always want extra work done at no charge & unfortuneately many companies oblige them!! especially the cutthroat uninsured hacks just wantin beer money. makes me think about another line of work!!!

LXT................

 

[treeseer]

what I like is when you consult with the home owner, advise them on what is best(because they dont know, thus reason your here) they take it all in & agree. your game plan for their job & tells some other brainless A$$ that this is what he wants done, makes me think about another line of work ....

....Or another approach to the same line of work--getting paid for the consults. If you are, and see your plan carried out in a less than ideal way, well, you did what you could, and you did not hurt yourself in the process.

Consulting for free hurts yourself.

hey rich why not bring the kids!??!

 

[lxt]

Consulting for free? everyone who gives free estimates consults for free!!!!

I dont know where your at, but where I live you give a free estimate which involves 1-meeting the homeowner 2-listening to what their goals are & the work involved 3-providing them with alternatives or proper arboriculture advice pertaining to what they want done. etc...etc...

I dont know too many tree guys that while at a customers home have not walked around the property at the homeowners request answering questions & giving advice!!! you try to charge for that here & you`ll get laughed at(along with going hungry) arboriculture consults are very rare(those that pay) almost unheard of!! unless you are dealing with historical property & even then the curator wants a free estimate(consult).

guess it just matters on the area, believe me if I could charge to consult I would just not conducive to the trade where I live.

LXT.............

 

[treeseer]

where I live you give a free estimate which involves 1-meeting the homeowner 2-listening to what their goals are & the work involved 3-providing them with alternatives or proper arboriculture advice pertaining to what they want done. etc...etc...

I dont know too many tree guys that while at a customers home have not walked around the property at the homeowners request answering questions & giving advice!!! you try to charge for that here & you`ll get laughed at ..

I started charging for consults when I got certified in 1992. My air conditioning repairman charges for consulting, and so do plumbers. Your market won't get developed in a day but if no one works to heighten awareness of tree value, then it's free advice and cutthroat competition with no end in sight.:bang: Building credibilty through certification is a good step.

Sometimes I can't suppress the impulse to laugh at callers who want me to drive a half hour to give a free estimate. If I don't value my expertise (and gasoline!) enough to charge for it, why should potential customers value what I do?

 

[Stihl User]

Go to the homeowner and point everything the guy did wrong. Usually works out well.

 

[SilentElk]

Question: If you are to charge for an estimate how do you initiate the concept to the homeowner that an estimate from you will cost money and not be free like many others? And secondly, how do you charge? time alwys good but curious about what parameters and what a general estimate costs.

In landscaping we always charge for estimates over $3000 but negate the charge if they accept the job and pay upon completetion. On full landscapes I have seen these take 4-6 manhours to accomplish.

 

[treeseer]

Question: If you are to charge for an estimate how do you initiate the concept to the homeowner .

Consultation is the concept, not estimating. You are there to provide information and make recommendations. The owner then chooses the service(s) they want, and at that point when you go off the consulting clock (1 hour is typical; I have heard rates from $45 to $250 depending on the job and the consultant) and put on the contractor's hat and estimate the services the owner selects. This from the attached ceu article from last december:


A telephone call for an estimate to remove a tree is often the first contact arborists have with potential clients. To sell more than that single service, more information is needed--about the trees, the caller, and the ecosystems they are a part of. This information is best obtained on site. The business cost can be high—the estimator’s time, vehicle and material and administrative costs all should be factored in. If the business has certified employees and also displays professionalism on the initial contact, the caller may well agree to an inventory and a full management plan.

The first service involved in professional landscape management is an inventory. An hour or half-hour walking the site with the owner or manager gives you time to determine their motivation, identify their key plants, and prioritize their management. A bare-bones inventory yields a handwritten list of arboricultural steps toward a safe, healthy, and beautiful landscape. An inventory is an essential service for several reasons. It creates a reference point for client communication. It provides a starting point for recording treatments. It costs little to integrate digital images, which will allow clients to review their landscapes at their leisure. By placing all their arboreal assets in front of the owner, the inventory documents the increase in value through arboriculture.

That value grows over time, as the trees increase in vitality, volume, and contributions with the proper care and treatments. An inventory should be objective, and rendered in a form that can be implemented by any knowledgeable arborist. Even if the goal is for the same company to do the work, the inventory should be a distinct product. When the owner has the option to contract with other companies, there will be less perception of bias and more trust. If the caller still doesn’t want to pay for an inventory, the next step is to find out their reasons for wanting the tree removed. Their descriptions may provide openings for information from the arborist, leading to more trust by the owner.

If the customer is not receptive to any service aside from removal, the door to selling PHC should not be closed. While pricing the removal the estimator can keep an eye out for other plant needs. A brief note can be made on the bid sheet, and information attached. The ISA Consumer Information Series has an economical and effective format that enables consumers to gain familiarity with the basic needs of their landscape. Once they are sold on the service, PHC clients aren’t likely to be shopping for the lowest price. They want contact with the provider, information about the trees and the treatments, and results that they can appreciate on a sensory level--aesthetics. Cost is based on value delivered, which depends on what services the arborist’s business offers. PHC marketing focuses on growing tree benefits for the buyer.

 

[Mitchell]

nothing is for free

Question: If you are to charge for an estimate how do you initiate the concept to the homeowner that an estimate from you will cost money and not be free like many others? And secondly, how do you charge? time always good but curious about what parameters and what a general estimate costs. QUOTE]

I agree with treeseer about the lack of value placed on aboricultor and its practitioners. Perhaps it is because trees are so common that they are not valued enough. Analogous to our children; typically, we pay 5 to 10 bucks an hour to our children's care givers. I doubt much will change until there is some form of a tree care union or governmental care standards.

I have worked on the principle that my rate when working compensates for my driving around giving advice etc. So far, if I can spend enough time with home owner or property rep, I tend to get most jobs I bid on.

I suspect I am in a similar position to a lot of us here. I have been asked over the phone what my consulting rate is on several occasions but I have never charged. One I do not feel confident enough to show up and razzle dazzle folks about this species and that. If I'm "free" I do not mind saying "Sorry don't know." Secondly, for myself, I look at those as loss leaders and chalk it up to advertising/referal costs. Third I feel in my market, with very high per capita competition, I would lose most of my work if I charged.

 

[af7850]

"Consulting Charges" are for sissies.

I have worked on the principle that my rate when working compensates for my driving around giving advice etc. So far, if I can spend enough time with home owner or property rep, I tend to get most jobs I bid on.

Nice work, sir. You are certainly on the right path.

As a rule, I never charge a potential customer for an intial consultation. In fact, I never call it an "initial consultation". Our company actively informs our market area that "One of our skilled Tree Experts would be delighted to visit your property, meet you in person and answer any questions you may have about your trees."

Why, you might ask, would we "give it away for free"? Is it because we do not value our own time and expertise? Or, do we perhaps enjoy giving away free information more than making money? Are we somehow affiliated with the United Way?

Of course not.

First off, people like to hire people they like. They like people who are kind-of like themselves. They like people who are their friends. Would you charge your friend of 20 years for a "consltation"?

Secondly, this gives me an opportunity to educate each potential client on proper pruning techniques. I go over each tree in question, point out and elaborate on all problem areas, explain how these issues are properly corrected. Then, the client gets the same information in writing in the form of a written quotation, complete with purpose, goals, scope, directives and additional recommendations.

Why give the free education? In an industry with little regulation, and in a state with no licensing requirements or legislative oversight, there are plenty of hack companies out there. Even some of the larger outfits, who have the equipment to handle massive removals quite efficiently, apparently have no arboricultural skill whatsoever.

As a newer player in the game, I know that many of my potential clients have used these other companies in the past. How can they see that we're better if they don't know what to look for? By educating them, I am allowing them to have an appreciation for the higher quality of service that I offer.

So, by time we're finished, I've spent some real quality time with the client, and taught them what great tree service is all about. We've laughed, cried, talked and gotten to know each other. I've given them plenty of reasons to like me, trust me, and want to do business with me.

The result? I close consistently, swiftly, and with the customer happy to pay me top dollar for service. Just last Thursday I closed on a job where my quote was 50% higher than the next highest bid. She asked if I would concede on price. I said, "No, because I would never concede on quality." She said, "How soon can you get started?"

REMEMBER, our value as trusted professionals is far greater than the sum of our labor hour charges.