argh! stupid ethanol... ways to keep from blowing up small engines

[GrassGuerilla]

The blend.

As I understand, theres more than just ethanol being blended. With different summer and winter blends, and different blends by region. One hamfisted Homer Simpson type is all it takes to blow a batch. Ethanol or whatever swamp muck they're blending occasionally does a number on carbs.

If by necessity you must run ethanol, it makes sense to run them dry anytime they aren't needed for more than a week or two. Too unstable to leave in a valuable tool.

 

[Moparmyway]

This is a repost....

What I do..Make my own.. Basics...Alcohol is an octane booster,approx 2.5 points.Use 93...93-2.5=90.5 octane.
I use an old glass 5gal carboy.Put one qt of water..fresh!not salt.....Mark the spot where the water sits with a marking pen.Down to the station,put in 3gal of 93.This will mix the alcohol and water an instigate phase separation.Cover the container,let sit in a shady cool place.Have a few beers with the bros....Come back in a few hrs.Now you will notice that the water is cloudy and well above the line that was marked.So......Ya all still awake?.128fl oz in a gal x 3 =384oz 10% of that is 38.4 oz of removed alcohol....You've got straight 90.5 gas.
Can I tell the difference..not really..Better safe than sorry though...Local shop has 5gal pail of non E-10+MIX 96$.......

Problem is what to do with the grunge.????

cheers

What kind of alcohol are you mixing with ?

or

Are you just pouring the water into the E10 ?

 

[Moparmyway]

Find a cycle shop that sells VP race fuel. Buy SEF94.

I had a little time, so I went and got a 5 gallon water jug. I poured in 64 oz of water, and added 2 gallons of 94 octane pump gas (256 oz).
I shook it up real good and let it sit 20 minutes.
I repeated this a few times, and on the 3rd shake, I noticed it really mixxed ....... and thought " oops, I ruined this gas, the "internet" is wrong" ........
So I let it sit with a cover on it ........... for 6 days.

Then I look, and see tinted gas on top, and cloudy water on bottom. The water closer to the bottom of the jug was more clear than the water by the gasoline line
So I drill a 1/4" hole in the bottom of the water jug, and measure out in excess of (lost some water due to some spillage and some gas did get in to the water jug at the end) of 112 oz of cloudy water. Smells like race gas

Pour out a little more than 1.5 gallons of pure gasonline (of what I assume to be ethanol free 90-91 octane), and mixxed in some Stabil and made some 32:1 then added Marvel Mystery oil.

poured in:
-256 oz pump gas
-64 oz clear water

took out:
-112 oz cloudy water
-200 oz ethanol and water free gasoline

lost some:
-spillage on ground when screw was removed, and re-inserted
-when some drops of gasoline got into the water container as it drained
-didnt drain every drop of gas due to condensation on jugs interior allways dripping water drops down while draining. This had water pool up near the hole. I didnt want that water mixxed in with the "good gas", so some gas and water was lost at the end.


Is this correct ?
Can I use this distilled and now mixxed gas without worry for my other diaphragm operated 2 cycle equipment ?

 

[mikefunaro]

Is this correct ?
Can I use this distilled and now mixxed gas without worry for my other diaphragm operated 2 cycle equipment ?

The problem is that the ethanol is something of an octane booster. Ethanol itself has octane north of 100. It's unclear what the octane of the gas is that is mixed with the ethanol, and to what extent the ethanol is factored into the posted octane rating.

it's conceivable that you've made a sub 89 octane gas. Just depends on how much octane there was in it to begin with.

Ethanol has 110 octane on average.

You took out about 50 oz of ethanol from 128*5 =790 oz of total volume.

if you a proportional relationship then 50 * 110 octane + 740 * x octane = 790 * average octane.

Not sure what you started with but if you start with 93 gas,

(790*93) = (50*110) + (740*x), x = 91.8 octane of the actual gas component.

So you're still theoretically good if all the rounding holds and you started with 93 octane gas. The big question is whether you got all the water out.

 

[2dumb4words]

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[elanjoe]

SEA FOAM motor treatment, works wonders on ethenol and water

 

[Moparmyway]

The problem is that the ethanol is something of an octane booster. Ethanol itself has octane north of 100. It's unclear what the octane of the gas is that is mixed with the ethanol, and to what extent the ethanol is factored into the posted octane rating.

it's conceivable that you've made a sub 89 octane gas. Just depends on how much octane there was in it to begin with.

Ethanol has 110 octane on average.

You took out about 50 oz of ethanol from 128*5 =790 oz of total volume.

if you a proportional relationship then 50 * 110 octane + 740 * x octane = 790 * average octane.

Not sure what you started with but if you start with 93 gas,

(790*93) = (50*110) + (740*x), x = 91.8 octane of the actual gas component.

So you're still theoretically good if all the rounding holds and you started with 93 octane gas. The big question is whether you got all the water out.

I dont believe I took out 50 oz of ethanol, as it has water attached to it, so somewhere south of your guess is what I believe. I started with 94 octane, and all of my internet info and dirty math comes up with about 91 octane from my home brew.

its easy to see the water after the phase seperation happens, it looks like you just have to be willing to loose some gas - just as you are draining the last of the water out.

Secondly, water, being heavier than gas, will not shoot out in the discharge stream like gas does, and when a water droplet (albe-it very small) did go into the hole, it didnt get pissed out, it dribbled down to form a droplet, seperate from the gas stream. Next distilling, I will try to video what I mean ......... none-the-less, an exam of the finished product yields fantastic results, with just a small droplet of water at the very bottom of the tank, (easily removed by ejector suctin gun hose) and I will be filling up my saw tanks and tuning for the new non-ethanol 90-91 octane mix. And if its 91-92 octane, I am Ok with that one also !!

Where did the 790 oz come from ?

 

[2dumb4words]

SEA FOAM motor treatment, works wonders on ethenol and water

Based on what? Don't remember any such claims from SeaFoam?

 

[Moparmyway]

SEA FOAM motor treatment, works wonders on ethenol and water

Except the owner of the shop says that Briggs and Stratton is the only one to offer a "drop in" non-alcohol addative for ethanol gas, and its not proven to work yet. All other addatives have still produced pitting in the carb base at the fuel pump where the water is held up and pools. He included regular Stabil as well as Sea Foam as being "innefective" in preventing damage. He says he has thrown out great saws these last 2 years due to the damage happening from saws running lean on our 15% ethanol in this area.

It took allmost no effort at all to distill my brew ............... so long as it works, its better than purchasing something. Its just gunna burn anyway !

 

[2dumb4words]

Except the owner of the shop says that Briggs and Stratton is the only one to offer a "drop in" non-alcohol addative for ethanol gas, and its not proven to work yet. All other addatives have still produced pitting in the carb base at the fuel pump where the water is held up and pools. He included regular Stabil as well as Sea Foam as being "innefective" in preventing damage. He says he has thrown out great saws these last 2 years due to the damage happening from saws running lean on our 15% ethanol in this area.

It took allmost no effort at all to distill my brew ............... so long as it works, its better than purchasing something. Its just gunna burn anyway !

I appreciate your bravery. I just don't have the stones to use my saws as guinea pigs. Not that I'm more comfortable using pump gas. I'm a little concerned about the final octane rating. I've tried looking for more info on "brewing your own non-ethanol fuel" with little to no solid information. I've found ethanol testers, but no octane tester.

 

[elanjoe]

Based on what? Don't remember any such claims from SeaFoam?

it also fixes scored p/c too. :msp_biggrin:

 

[ch woodchuck]

I appreciate your bravery. I just don't have the stones to use my saws as guinea pigs. Not that I'm more comfortable using pump gas. I'm a little concerned about the final octane rating. I've tried looking for more info on "brewing your own non-ethanol fuel" with little to no solid information. I've found ethanol testers, but no octane tester.

Because ethanol has an octane rating of 113, adding 10% ethanol to gasoline raises the finished fuel's octane rating by 2 or 3 points.

Pretty straight forward. 93-3=90oct.Running 3saws powerpole pruner,gas hedger,and a string trimmer for the past 6+ months.Like I said originally..can I tell the diff.? Not really.Better safe than sorry.Did notice that I had to retune the saw carbs with the straight gas.

cheers

 

[066blaster]

I wonder if the additives do a thing. I have never used them. I guess my gas dont sit around that long. I just think if you can run the gas in the cars now days, I wouldnt think it would destroy a saw. I use higher octane just because its a high compression engine. regular gas eats up the gas lines too. all the extra cost of the additives and av gas, after a year you could buy a new carb and lines. Thats all..........

 

[ch woodchuck]

All that stuff gets expensive after awhile.I just use a prof, grade mix from bailey's,no extra additives. station gas can sometimes be contaminated with all kinds of crud.Happened here in this small cow town.Handfull of cars had to be towed because of gas/water mix.One of the batches I made had a dark scum line on top of the water/alky combo,nasty looking..Another reason I make my own.

cheers

 

[rmihalek]

I wonder if the additives do a thing. I have never used them. I guess my gas dont sit around that long. I just think if you can run the gas in the cars now days, I wouldnt think it would destroy a saw. I use higher octane just because its a high compression engine. regular gas eats up the gas lines too. all the extra cost of the additives and av gas, after a year you could buy a new carb and lines. Thats all..........

Modern automobiles have multiple systems in place designed to adjust the air/fuel mixture to a variety of operating conditions (for example, exhaust gas oxygen and temperature sensors). If your car happens to get a batch of E20, my guess is the system can compensate.

The problem with small engines is (even if you make fresh mix every day) if your fresh mix happens to be make with E20, and your expensive saw is already running slightly lean, you can fry the top end...now it's not just a new carb and lines but a $400 top end rebuild.

 

[Moparmyway]

I appreciate your bravery. I just don't have the stones to use my saws as guinea pigs. Not that I'm more comfortable using pump gas. I'm a little concerned about the final octane rating. I've tried looking for more info on "brewing your own non-ethanol fuel" with little to no solid information. I've found ethanol testers, but no octane tester.

Its more like the lesser of 2 evils;

-If I continue operating normally, HUTA (Head up the Arse) then I destroy my saws
-If I brew my own gas, my saws could be destroyed, or they could last for ever

Between those 2 choices alone- its pretty easy to choose

The little to no solid information ....................
Not really agreeing with you there, as I found lots of info here on AS, as well as Google.

Re-tuning the saws this weekend, gotta see how the brew works !!

 

[Moparmyway]

All that stuff gets expensive after awhile.I just use a prof, grade mix from bailey's,no extra additives. station gas can sometimes be contaminated with all kinds of crud.Happened here in this small cow town.Handfull of cars had to be towed because of gas/water mix.One of the batches I made had a dark scum line on top of the water/alky combo,nasty looking..Another reason I make my own.
cheers

My current (second) batch of distilled liquid has this same brownish line. Very faint, but there. I will let it sit a few more days and be sure to drain out the dark stuff.

As I understand it, trying to distill 2 cycle already mixxed with gas is a no-no, so if I am wrong, please say so now, before I dump my older non-distilled 2 cycle 94 octane gas into my car .................

 

[2dumb4words]

I should probably say little empirical data. There's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence. I'd like to see some research. If you have links, I'd be appreciative.

I'm not bashing you at all. I'm on the edge myself, just went a different direction recently. The two strokes that get reg use (weekly or more often) get 89octane ethanol pump mix. Anything not being run for longer than a week gets drained, splashed with trufuel. Then run it a minute or two, drain again, and idled till dry (under a minute). Then they seem to do fine. Haven't been doing this long enough to know the long term results.

My belief is its ok to burn, but not to sit. We'll see.

Positively staggering to me that were discussing brewing our own fuel in this day and age. Madness. I'm encouraged from what I've read on your technique. Might have to try my hand at it soon.

 

[066blaster]

I have been running reformulated gas for years without a problem. I sure as heck aint gonna brew my own, never heard of that!!!, or dump all the snake oil in it either. pump gas works fine, use it.. If anything add alittle more 2 stoke mix to it or richen the carb.

 

[missedbass]

I should probably say little empirical data. There's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence. I'd like to see some research. If you have links, I'd be appreciative.

I'm not bashing you at all. I'm on the edge myself, just went a different direction recently. The two strokes that get reg use (weekly or more often) get 89octane ethanol pump mix. Anything not being run for longer than a week gets drained, splashed with trufuel. Then run it a minute or two, drain again, and idled till dry (under a minute). Then they seem to do fine. Haven't been doing this long enough to know the long term results.

My belief is its ok to burn, but not to sit. We'll see.

Positively staggering to me that were discussing brewing our own fuel in this day and age. Madness. I'm encouraged from what I've read on your technique. Might have to try my hand at it soon.

Why drain the trufuel?