argh! stupid ethanol... ways to keep from blowing up small engines

[066blaster]

The ope independent shop, the husky shop and the stihl shop locally to me advise customers to not use ethanol fuel if they can avoid it. Seems if they wanted to drum up more business they wouldnt say that.

Just sayin..there a lot of different people who run shops, some more ethical than others. A good shop will do good business, ethanol fuel or not. Just like they did back in the day when there wasnt any ethanol fuel. some good and competent, look out for their customers, some dont give a squat, just want to take their money no matter how they do it.

Anyway, ethanol contaminated fuel (thats what I call it, contaminated), there are two things cant be argued, because it is just data: You cant argue the actual verified chemistry, that is not opinion, that is just hard verifiable act, and you cant argue that all the saw manufacturers have explicit warnings about not using anything above E 10, and as can be seen, plenty of folks can inadvertently get a higher % of ethanol in their fuel, even when the pump says 10%. And thats such a random crapshoot, no one can say that, that just because they can deal with it without apparent issues, that some other guy over in the next state who got a batch of too high is at fault when it borks his equipment. That guy could be doing the same level of care, only using fresh, etc, and still have a breakdown, and it isnt his fault.

This is why I say, if you CAN get non ethanol, do it, its just all around superior fuel with much less chance of causing problems.. just cheap insurance. I dont want to run a real cheap mix oil when for just a little more I can get quality good FD rated synthetic, and the same for gas, for a slight bit of pocket change extra per gallon I can get non E over ethanol contaminated.

To each their own!

maybe some of the time its way less than 10 since i think it costs more than gas.

why would they put more in?

 

[2dumb4words]

Why drain the trufuel?

I only drain the trufuel when it's not going to be used within a week or so. That way if a week or so turns into a year or so I'm good. I know the trufuel has a year plus "shelf life". I do exterior maintenance for banks and real estate brokers. To be able to cut grass and do lawn clean ups year round, I have backups for most everything. I've had my fair share of fuel related issues. I think most all due to ethanol sitting. The smaller the carb, the more susceptible they seem to be. I was for many years a believer in keeping them "wet" or full of fresh fuel. When we went from 5 to 10% ethanol things got much worse. Since using trufuel as a "prophylactic" (less than a year), I've had no issues.

Again, that we have come to a place where we are actually intentionally adding water to our gas to remove the ethanol (or paying $20/gal for trufuel) is simply surreal.

 

[2dumb4words]

maybe some of the time its way less than 10 since i think it costs more than gas.

why would they put more in?

I don't think they intentionally "put more in". It's been rumored that blends vary from batch to batch. Another thread here Modifiedmark tested the fuel in a saw in for a new P&C at 20%ethanol. Another contributing factor is so called "additives". Many consumers unknowingly add more alcohol to their mix.

 

[Moparmyway]

I have been running reformulated gas for years without a problem. I sure as heck aint gonna brew my own, never heard of that!!!, or dump all the snake oil in it either. pump gas works fine, use it.. If anything add alittle more 2 stoke mix to it or richen the carb.

And I said the exact same thing, untill I pulled apart my carb and saw the pitting myself on my own saw.

If you dont change your way of running, at least keep an eye out for the pitting in the carb and sometimes along the intake to the crankcase. If you see it, remember we told you so.

 

[Moparmyway]

. The smaller the carb, the more susceptible they seem to be.

I have noticed that float carbs do not mind too much, as soon as there is enough water caught in the bowl, the motor runs rough, drain the bowl, good to go for a while

Now, small diaphragm operated carbs ........ they get hit the worst, especially around the fuel pump side.
Water wont pass and gets held up and wears away at the carb aluminum housing. Amazing what a little water and a vibrating diaphragm can do to aluminum.

 

[2dumb4words]

I have noticed that float carbs do not mind too much, as soon as there is enough water caught in the bowl, the motor runs rough, drain the bowl, good to go for a while

Now, small diaphragm operated carbs ........ they get hit the worst, especially around the fuel pump side.
Water wont pass and gets held up and wears away at the carb aluminum housing. Amazing what a little water and a vibrating diaphragm can do to aluminum.

Exactly. To take my observation further. Smaller, diaphragm carbs (having very small internal screens) are quickest to no-start. While larger diaphragm carbs (often with larger screen area), seem more prone to lean out, and eventually score or even seize. Totally anecdotal observation.

I can see a fuel filtering, ethanol removing, laboratory in my future.

 

[mikefunaro]

maybe some of the time its way less than 10 since i think it costs more than gas.

why would they put more in?

There are a lot of mysteries in the fuel business.

One thing is that the ethanol is typically splash blended with the tanker truck. You pour gas in, then your pour ethanol in, then you pour more gas in. Since there is relatively little empty space in the tanker truck, it doesn't get mixed all the way. The idea is that it's supposed to mix while you're driving. But if you put red food coloring in an half empty bottle of water and shake it, versus putting food coloring in a full bottle of water and shake it, you will quickly see the difference.

the other thing is the blender isn't necessarily obligated to distribute all the ethanol evenly over all the fuel they put out. They may put more on some trucks than others.

Between the two, it isn't that hard to wind up with greater than 10%

 

[bplust]

Add 10% give or take water to a batch of ethanol gas. Shake up and wait a few minutes. Drain off the bottom until you see a clear separation in the opacity of the drained contents. Then you have ethanol-free fuel, free of overheating, rubber dissolving, and all of those other great bi-products of ethanol fuel. And in the drained contents, you have the windshield washer fluid from heck!

 

[rmihalek]

In Massachusetts, the pumps have a sticker on them indicating the %ethanol (10%) and it also says "% alcohol cosolvent." The number for the cosolvent is 0%. I'm guessing here, but it seems to me the blenders could put in 0.001% of some kind of detergent which would allow the ethanol (a polar molecule) to dissolve in gasoline ( a non-polar material). The detergent would function like dish soap, allowing the bacon fat (bacon....) to be dispersed in water when you're washing the frying pan after breakfast.

So, maybe the cosolvent is just enough to keep 10% ethanol dispersed in the gasoline, but if the guy pushing the button on the ethanol switch happens to dump in an extra barrel or so, then the batch could be at 20% and the cosolvent can't disperse that amount. So now there's free ethanol roaming around in your fuel system causing chaos!

 

[bplust]

In Massachusetts, the pumps have a sticker on them indicating the %ethanol (10%) and it also says "% alcohol cosolvent." The number for the cosolvent is 0%. I'm guessing here, but it seems to me the blenders could put in 0.001% of some kind of detergent which would allow the ethanol (a polar molecule) to dissolve in gasoline ( a non-polar material). The detergent would function like dish soap, allowing the bacon fat (bacon....) to be dispersed in water when you're washing the frying pan after breakfast.

So, maybe the cosolvent is just enough to keep 10% ethanol dispersed in the gasoline, but if the guy pushing the button on the ethanol switch happens to dump in an extra barrel or so, then the batch could be at 20% and the cosolvent can't disperse that amount. So now there's free ethanol roaming around in your fuel system causing chaos!

And there's the fact that ethanol attracts moisture, lowering its shelf life, so if a fuel is born e20, imagine what fun your motor could be having!

 

[Modifiedmark]

More ethanol hysteria...........

I've been burning regular unlead with ethanol in it since before the Dead Sea was getting sick. Use it in everything from cars to chainsaws. No snake oil additives.

I make sure the fuel is clean and not contaminated from the pump, store it in air tight containers, sometimes for five to six months over winter.

From my experience, I rate the ethanol scourage in the same category as the Mayan doomsday.

More B.S. than reality.

Listen, I dont know where Up north, way up north is and dont really care, but I'm glad to hear that in your little space of earth, your having no problems with the ethanol blended fuel.

That said, just because its all hunky dorey there for you dose not mean its the same for others where ever they may be and it is not.

I would like to ask you to share your secrets on how you make sure the fuel is clean and not contaminated from the pump? Please explain that to me will you. I must be doing something wrong. I pay for the gas and pump it into my can, not sure how I can tell if its clean and uncontaminated that way.

I can test if for ethanol content and that is a experiance. No consistency around here at all.

I wish you could have been here to help me change the lines out on 50 of my saws at one time due to ethanol damage, some showing severe signs in as little as 4-6 weeks. You could then explain to me how my can had a 25% ethanol content in it and that it was not the root of my problems. Heck you could then explain to me how I ended up with 25% ethanol in my can to begin with.

Maybe you can explain how these carb screens are getting coated with something and not allow fuel to flow through them for me as well.

Like I said I'm glad your not having problems where you are but its pretty ignorant to belive that everyone else is making these problems up just for the hell of it.

 

[Moparmyway]

Listen, I dont know where Up north, way up north is and dont really care, but I'm glad to hear that in your little space of earth, your having no problems with the ethanol blended fuel.

That said, just because its all hunky dorey there for you dose not mean its the same for others where ever they may be and it is not.

I would like to ask you to share your secrets on how you make sure the fuel is clean and not contaminated from the pump? Please explain that to me will you. I must be doing something wrong. I pay for the gas and pump it into my can, not sure how I can tell if its clean and uncontaminated that way.

I can test if for ethanol content and that is a experiance. No consistency around here at all.

I wish you could have been here to help me change the lines out on 50 of my saws at one time due to ethanol damage, some showing severe signs in as little as 4-6 weeks. You could then explain to me how my can had a 25% ethanol content in it and that it was not the root of my problems. Heck you could then explain to me how I ended up with 25% ethanol in my can to begin with.

Maybe you can explain how these carb screens are getting coated with something and not allow fuel to flow through them for me as well.

Like I said I'm glad your not having problems where you are but its pretty ignorant to belive that everyone else is making these problems up just for the hell of it.

Thanks Mark !!
Although I only had 2 saws show signs of damage, it was enough for me to make a change.
Right, wrong, or indifferent .............. I will be removing the ethanol and water from my 94 octane gas from now on.
I tested my 94 pump gas and come up with 20% ethanol ................
I thought NY was capped @ 15% ????
Thank God for a 5 gallon water jug and some cold tap water !!!!!!!!

 

[bplust]

More ethanol hysteria...........

I've been burning regular unlead with ethanol in it since before the Dead Sea was getting sick. Use it in everything from cars to chainsaws. No snake oil additives.

I make sure the fuel is clean and not contaminated from the pump, store it in air tight containers, sometimes for five to six months over winter.

From my experience, I rate the ethanol scourage in the same category as the Mayan doomsday.

More B.S. than reality.

By any chance do you work for the ethanol lobby :jester: ?

There's no way that one can state honestly that non ethanol fuel is no better than ethanol fuel.

A local shop owner here did a demonstration of ethanol fuel vs non ethanol fuel. He put two Poulans (wild thing types) up for the winter with some fuel in the tanks, e10 in one and non ethanol in the other, and 6 months later, one needed a carb rebuild and a fuel line (guess which one).

Will ethanol fuel dissolve diaphragms and fuel lines overnight? No. But bottom line, it's worse than pure gasoline, and there's no good reason to run it, so those that want to properly maintain and run their tools should remove the ethanol or buy pure gas.

 

[066blaster]

By any chance do you work for the ethanol lobby :jester: ?

There's no way that one can state honestly that non ethanol fuel is no better than ethanol fuel.

A local shop owner here did a demonstration of ethanol fuel vs non ethanol fuel. He put two Poulans (wild thing types) up for the winter with some fuel in the tanks, e10 in one and non ethanol in the other, and 6 months later, one needed a carb rebuild and a fuel line (guess which one).

Will ethanol fuel dissolve diaphragms and fuel lines overnight? No. But bottom line, it's worse than pure gasoline, and there's no good reason to run it, so those that want to properly maintain and run their tools should remove the ethanol or buy pure gas.

I dont think anyone is saying they love the stuff but it is what the mainstream fuel is now.

We might have to replace somethings a little sooner than with regular gas, or clean somethings more often. I have not experienced any of this though. But some people are going to extremes to avoid this stuff like theres metal shavings dumped in it .

 

[jellero]

i wish i had found this thread a couple years ago. everything i own runs better without ethanol and i get better mileage in my car and pickup without that crap. i live in the mts. of colorado so also have to deal with altitude, like 10k-11k' where i cut. we had one station with ethanol free gas but they changed this year to gasahol without posting it on the pump. i drove for 40 minutes to cut and saw vapor locked after about 6 cuts on a 15" tree so knew it was the gas. that is my biggest problem with ethanol, vapor lock. anyone else? my saw is 38 years old, a 65 cc remington that just keeps going, cutting 8-12 cords a year. i also have a trimmer, a 2 stroke scooter, a 1966 ford pickup, various motorcycles including a 1961 harley. NONE of my older stuff works with ethanol. i'd never heard of startron but will try it. i buy avgas 101 for the 2 stroke engines at the local mom and pop airport where i fly, for my "ultralite". avgas is suppose to be for flying... i also used some motorcycle racing gas, both are great and store very well. the newer saws must be made to at least run on 10% ethanol but that doesn't help with the gumming up and eating away of rubber. anyway, glad i found this site. j

 

[Modifiedmark]

I wonder if the additives do a thing. I have never used them. I guess my gas dont sit around that long. I just think if you can run the gas in the cars now days, I wouldnt think it would destroy a saw. I use higher octane just because its a high compression engine. regular gas eats up the gas lines too. all the extra cost of the additives and av gas, after a year you could buy a new carb and lines. Thats all..........

I have been running reformulated gas for years without a problem. I sure as heck aint gonna brew my own, never heard of that!!!, or dump all the snake oil in it either. pump gas works fine, use it.. If anything add alittle more 2 stoke mix to it or richen the carb.

I dont think anyone is saying they love the stuff but it is what the mainstream fuel is now.

We might have to replace somethings a little sooner than with regular gas, or clean somethings more often. I have not experienced any of this though. But some people are going to extremes to avoid this stuff like theres metal shavings dumped in it .

Looking at your post I was wondering about them and thinking that you were pretty laid back and almost apologetic in your defense of the Ethanol in the fuel now days. I wondered, who would do that and why? Then it hit me, they sound like post from a farmer!

I checked your profile and sure enough we have a farmer here who dont mind ethanol because his pocket book benifits from it probably way more then the ethanol damage to his equipment would cost him. Hmm I think this explains some folks outlook on this...

In the meantime our vast population is poulluting the air more, there cars are getting less MPG, there small engines are dying, and its costing them a ton more to buy a box of corn flakes or a good piece of beef. Thank you so much.

 

[Acosi151]

I've been pretty lucky so far I guess. No point worrying about it though. I don't have anywhere that sells non 10% close by anyway.

I guess if I had high compression or ported toys I'd think about it.. but from what I understand the big issue with alcohol is the chance of it corroding brass pieces in the carb.. 'specially jets.. not creating a hot situation in the cyl. or blowing up parts.

I haven't run into an engine yet that takes me more than a 1/2 hour to pull the carb and clean it... and last time I checked small engines have been asking the have their carbs cleaned every year at the start of the homeowner season since the dawn of time.

 

[066blaster]

Looking at your post I was wondering about them and thinking that you were pretty laid back and almost apologetic in your defense of the Ethanol in the fuel now days. I wondered, who would do that and why? Then it hit me, they sound like post from a farmer!

I checked your profile and sure enough we have a farmer here who dont mind ethanol because his pocket book benifits from it probably way more then the ethanol damage to his equipment would cost him. Hmm I think this explains some folks outlook on this...

In the meantime our vast population is poulluting the air more, there cars are getting less MPG, there small engines are dying, and its costing them a ton more to buy a box of corn flakes or a good piece of beef. Thank you so much.

I dont grow corn, not yet anyway. I also dont like ethanol. but also think theres alittle to much fear of it, i cut alot of wood and cant justify the added cost of getting around it..If your traveling 50 miles to get non "ethy" it kinda defeats the purpose too. around me all the crops go for cattle feed. it sucks when you have a drought and have to buy with the prices so high on corn and everything else. most have to sell some cattle cause it aint worth buying feed for them.

you can make $1000 an acre profit growing corn. and you can get up to $500 an acre for rent.

I know some people in Iowa that rent 500 acres,, $250,000 a year for doing nothing

We use corn for everything nowdays!!! also heard theres 5 cents worth of corn in a box of corn flakes. dont know what the other $4.00 is for

 

[Modifiedmark]

I dont grow corn, not yet anyway. I also dont like ethanol. but also think theres alittle to much fear of it, i cut alot of wood and cant justify the added cost of getting around it..If your traveling 50 miles to get non "ethy" it kinda defeats the purpose too. around me all the crops go for cattle feed. it sucks when you have a drought and have to buy with the prices so high on corn and everything else. most have to sell some cattle cause it aint worth buying feed for them.

you can make $1000 an acre profit growing corn. and you can get up to $500 an acre for rent.

I know some people in Iowa that rent 500 acres,, $250,000 a year for doing nothing

We use corn for everything nowdays!!! also heard theres 5 cents worth of corn in a box of corn flakes. dont know what the other $4.00 is for

Ok, so your not a grain farmer, but your paying even worse for the Ethanol then most.

Didn't mean anything personal at you at all, just pointing out the mentality of all the grain farmers that I know. They get down right nasty when you talk bad about ethanol.

I bought a nice used Poulan Pro 395 from a farm implement dealership and I thought they were going to throw me out of the place when I badmouthed the EPA and the ethanol lobby. Good thing I already had the saw bought and in my hand already.

 

[tollster]

Just found this on another sight I frequent.

New fuel voids possibly warranty



The use of E15, a corn-based ethanol fuel blend, could void your car's warranty, warns AAA. (Photo courtesy Autoblog).


Thanks to the fiscal cliff bill signed into law last week, a blend of fuel that contains more ethanol could soon reach more consumers than ever. That's bad news, AAA tells car owners.


The nation's largest motor club says use of the fuel blend, E15, could void car warranties on most cars. More corrosive than traditional gasoline, some studies show E15 may accelerate wear and tear on engines and components.


Federal agencies are pushing E15 as one component of a broader energy policy that promotes alternative fuels as a way to wean the country away from its reliance on foreign oil. The fiscal cliff bills extends a tax credit that makes it easier for gas stations to install E15 pumps and storage tanks. Experts say they think this will accelerate the arrival of E15 across the nation.


"Our concern is when you look through some of the research out there, you say, 'Boy, if this is half right, we should really be concerned,' " said John Nielsen, AAA's director of automotive engineering and repair.


Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota, Volkswagen and BMW have all stated their warranties do not cover damages related to use of E15. Eight other automakers tell AAA they may cancel warranty coverage, depending on what needs to be repaired.


The only auto manufacturers to specifically approve use of E15 are Porsche (on models built since 2001), and Ford and General Motors, which have approved its use on flex-fuel vehicles built in 2012 and 2013, respectively.


Last month, AAA asked the Environmental Protection Agency to suspend sales of E15, a blend of 15 percent ethanol and 85 percent traditional gasoline, until more tests can be conducted and consumers can be educated about the distinction between the different blends. But the federal government is speeding up, not slowing, down the introduction of E15.


AAA estimates that only 12 million of the nation's 240 million light-duty vehicles are equipped to handle E15, and that the danger of damage is especially higher in cars built in 2001 or earlier. Nielsen said the organization analyzed more than 30 research studies that ranged from emissions testing, engine testing and environmental impact before deciding to call for the suspension of its use.


"This has really percolated up as a subject, and we really believe there just needs to be more research on how E15 affects engines and components," Nielsen said. "With many car makers saying they won't honor warranties, this is a choice consumers have to make."


Much of the fuel sold in the United States is a blend of corn-based ethanol and gasoline. A 10 percent ethanol blend was the highest permitted by the Environmental Protection Agency until October 2010, when the agency authorized sales of E15 to cars or pickups built in 2007 or later. Soon after, the EPA expanded the waiver to include cars built from 2001 onward. (The waivers allow, but do not require, the sale of E15).


Whether drivers pay attention to such specifics when they pull into a gas station is a top concern for AAA. Ninety-five percent of drivers surveyed by the organization had no awareness of the fuel distinctions. But that lack of awareness could be because E15 is not widely sold beyond a handful of Midwestern states – yet.


Thanks to the tax credit extension – and a federal mandate that refiners blend 36 billion gallons of ethanol by 2022 – E15 is expected to soon reach more of the nation's 160,000 gas stations.


"The extension of these important provisions demonstrates the Obama administration's stalwart support of biofuels," Bob Dinneen, president and CEO of the Renewable Fuels Association told Biomass Magazine. "Equally significant is the extension of the alternative fuel tax credit, which will accelerate E15's entry into the marketplace this coming year."


Dinneen said E15 was the "most tested fuel" in the history of the EPA. In issuing its waivers, the agency said its decision was based on a conclusion that E15 would not cause or contribute to failures of emissions standards.


Studies on E15's harmfulness have shown conflicting results.


Critics have said the EPA only tested E15 for emissions standards - not engine wear - but the agency said it relied on testing conducted by the Department of Energy, which measured emissions, catalyst and engine durability, vehicle and engine components. A 2008 DOE test of 13 popular models concluded:


"Under normal operations, catalyst temperatures in the 13 cars were largely unchanged. When tested under full-throttle conditions, about half of the cars exhibited slightly increased catalyst temperatures with E15 and E20, compared to traditional gasoline."


An engineering analysis of E15 performed by Ricardo Inc. reached a similar finding, concluding that E15 should not hurt vehicles manufactured between 1994 and 2000, and those vehicles do not represent any obstacle in raising the blend limit. Yet a study done by the Coordinating Research Council in May of 2012 found E15 could harm car and light truck engines.


Determining which study among dozens to find credible can be difficult. The Ricardo study was conducted on behalf of the Renewable Fuels Association; the Coordinating Research Council study done for the American Petroleum Institute. Beyond the particular debate of whether E15 harms a car's engine is a broader one that involves considerable political jousting.


Poultry and cattle farm lobbies have opposed E15, because its production could increase the price of corn needed to feed their animals. Likewise, the oil industry has opposed it because E15 lessens the country's need for petroleum. The biofuels industry, on the other hand, believes that it supports corn farmers across the Midwest, as well as thousands of jobs in the fledgling alternative fuels industry.


"Ultimately, this is a fight about the next generation," Dinneen said. "The ethanol industry has become a tremendous success. We've become a victim of our own success, because we've awakened the oil companies."


Careful to avoid choosing a side in the political squabbling, Nielsen said there's wisdom in taking caution as that next generation of fuels approaches. Fearful potential complications have been overlooked, he says more testing of engines and other components should be done.


For example, part of EPA research found that 12 percent of vehicles tested on E15 had fuel-pump failures. "That's a reasonable outcome from increasing ethanol," he said, because traditional gasoline acts as a lubricant and ethanol does not. The EPA has called for increased testing on fuel pumps.


"It's an insidious problem," Nielsen said. "It's not a 'today' problem, but a long-term one. ... Cars could easily run for 200,000 miles, and if testing is saying there's wear occurring at 100,000 miles, that's a concern for most folks."


Tips for drivers


- Check your owner's manual to see if use of E15 is approved or mentioned. If you are unsure whether it's OK to use, check with your local dealership or automaker.


- Keep an eye on what you pump at the gas station. Currently, E15 is only available in a handful of Midwestern states. It's clearly marked at pumps where it is available.


- Don't panic. Even if E15 is not approved for your vehicle, experts say using it is more of a long-term problem. You won't damage your engine by using E15 in isolated instances. "Your car won't stall on the way home or anything," Nielsen said. "It's more of a buildup over time. If it's E15 or run out of gas, this isn't the end of the world."






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