Ash, euthanize and move on?

[treevet]

I am on my towns forestry board and being faced w a dilemma would like to hear your opinions which I respect more than others I am with on the board. We have the EAB on the boarder of my county and will probably see the ash killing borer this season. The question is .....Do you treat some of the ash trees to 1. Lessen the impact on the community by treating some of the ash so it is a more subtle loss of asthetics and possibly cooling and maybe well being? 2. To wait for a possible treatment to eradicate this insect where none in approx 8 years has proven to work unconditionally? The negatives of treating are the approx annual cost of 100, 000 which would buy a lot of tree removal and buy a lot of tree planting. Also if treating for , say, the 3 years suggested by co member, you will lose growth years of new trees planted now. We have approx 10% ash street and park trees as most towns do around here.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

10%, wow you guys are lucky, we are near 30%.

My veiw is to choose the best specimine trees and set up a ridgid treatment campaign on these select few. All the others mow down in the containment zone.

If a citizen wants to keep a tree they must have a permit that shows it was treated in a proper fashion (including good cultural practices) by approved companies in a time frame that will allow control of the pest. The cost of the permit should cover the cost of issuing and inspection of the treatment and the tree prior to the end of the growing season to ascertain that the treatment is working.

IMO trap trees should be left well inside in the containment area to monitor activity.

 

[treevet]

I like that permit thought. I m taking that to the next meeting. Indicator trees are monitored by the state but local govt. (board) prob would be much more observant. I feel a trap/indicator tree coming right in my sidewalk growing space in the near future. I am with you on the mow down. I d like to hear from some of the "apologize to trees" guys on this. We re at 10 % as ash haven t been doing very well prior to this. We re prob at 30% private trees as they have been replacement for 1st elms and more recently verticillium wilt/global warming killed sug and other maples.

 

[underwor]

On the great plains we are nearer to 60% ash. I am wondering what to suggest in this area myself. Our cool climate has protected us from many of the former pests, but I don't think we will be as lucky, from what I have read.

 

[treevet]

I also do not think cool climate precludes an infestation Dr. Underwor. So many of us will have to deal w this dilemma bcs treatment must wait until just prior to infestation and inaction is just the same as cutting them down. Action may be ineffective and be largely affected by budget twds removal of muni and privately owned trees.

 

[kevinj]

Everybody may think I'm crazy.
But you really should look at IPM here.
Has anyone tried spraying with a garlic barrier.
I woulld love to take the credit for this idea.
I have sprayed with garlic for years.
Just after to the insects emergence.
And found great results. The garlic spray acts as a camoflage.
The insect does not detect it's target. Therefore overlooks it.
A very simple recipe.
And can also be used in many more applications.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Has anyone tried spraying with a garlic barrier.

I like the idea, but with the nature of the pest, and politics It does not sound like a viable solution here.

How do you do this in a fedrally mandaded containment/eradication zone?
How often do you spray it with the long emergance period of the pest?
How often do you have to renew the spray if you are in a rainy period?
How do you ensure coverage on a +50 ft tree since they lay eggs mostly on immature bark to start the infestation?

Organic IPM is great when you have normal(ized) pests that will do aesthetic damage. When you have something that will shoot past economic levels of damamge in two years, stronger measures are needed.

 

[treeseer]

treatment must wait until just prior to infestation .

why?

 

[treevet]

why?

I do not know the answer to that Treeseer except I am again quoting the "Emerald Ash Borer Fact Sheet" by Danl A. Herms and David J. Sheltar, Assoc. Professors, Dept of Entomology, Oh Ag Research and Dvlpmt Ct and State Specialists, originating at Ohio State University: "Research suggests that the best control will be obtained when treatments are initiated just prior to, or in the earliest stages of infestation". Therefore my answer to your question is bcs of research however I do not know where to access that research. Another unfortunate aspect of this problem has been continuous reductions in funding, staff and information links due to maybe lack of success, or economic concerns or both.

 

[ATH]

I think the "treat just before infestation" may have not have been taken correctly... I am pretty sure that means that you are better off treating before the trees are heavily invested. You are not going to hurt much of anything except your budget if you treat several years ahead of the insect. The ideal, as I understand the research I have heard/read, is to start treatment 1-2 years before infestation so that the insecticide is built up in the tree when the bugs hit. Since we do not know exactally when that will be, starting now may be wise as close as you are to known infestations.

FWIW, I agree that it is worth treating "specimen" trees. For the rest: If I had a say for a city in your shoes, I think I'd set out a 5 year removal and replacement plan and start implementing that plan this year (if possible). The first year would remove the worst trees - probably mostly trees that need to go regardless of the EAB threat. Each year (if not more often), you re-evlauate the progress and decide if you need to accelerate or slow down the plan. This decision can be based on progress of the work and progress of EAB. Allowing individual homeowners to invest in treatment of their trees also sounds like a good idea. It can keep people happy, and worst-case will spread out the removal costs over a longer period. Talk to somebody from Minneopolis about how they handle that with DED treatments.

Finally, have you guys talked with an Urban or EAB forester from the Division of Forestry?

 

[treeseer]

You are not going to hurt much of anything except your budget if you treat several years ahead of the insect. The ideal, as I understand the research I have heard/read, is to start treatment 1-2 years before infestation so that the insecticide is built up in the tree when the bugs hit. Since we do not know exactally when that will be, starting now may be wise as close as you are to known infestations.

FWIW, I agree that it is worth treating "specimen" trees.

I agree. If someone says research "suggests", they are making a guess, which mey be no better than your own. I can't think of a reason to wait. If you are wondering, why not ask Herms and them for clarification of their suggestion?

 

[treevet]

I think the "treat just before infestation" may have not have been taken correctly... I am pretty sure that means that you are better off treating before the trees are heavily invested. You are not going to hurt much of anything except your budget if you treat several years ahead of the insect. The ideal, as I understand the research I have heard/read, is to start treatment 1-2 years before infestation so that the insecticide is built up in the tree when the bugs hit. Since we do not know exactally when that will be, starting now may be wise as close as you are to known infestations.

FWIW, I agree that it is worth treating "specimen" trees. For the rest: If I had a say for a city in your shoes, I think I'd set out a 5 year removal and replacement plan and start implementing that plan this year (if possible). The first year would remove the worst trees - probably mostly trees that need to go regardless of the EAB threat. Each year (if not more often), you re-evlauate the progress and decide if you need to accelerate or slow down the plan. This decision can be based on progress of the work and progress of EAB. Allowing individual homeowners to invest in treatment of their trees also sounds like a good idea. It can keep people happy, and worst-case will spread out the removal costs over a longer period. Talk to somebody from Minneopolis about how they handle that with DED treatments.

Finally, have you guys talked with an Urban or EAB forester from the Division of Forestry?

I would agree w you ATH, that they meant "treat before or early in infestation" (as opposed to waiting until heavy infestation) except for the word "just" used before the word "before" indicating to treat (right)before. Wondering about this with you and treeseer and prior to seeing treeseers current post, today I left a non stop day of craning a yard full of logs and running them to the dump to make a quick phonecall. Nothing is quick w city hall and I found myself w a whirlwind of phonecalls and holdons and transfers and ans machine msgs I left and ended up back at my first call w the girl laughing about the runaround I got. The spokesperson for the "Fact Sheet" is on a week vacation. One person started to commit on the fact that "just before" is their policy because.......and I asked a few questions and she excused herself, and I heard talk in the background and she returned and sent me to another phone call. Herms and Sheltar are to busy to even attempt to rundown she said.

 

[treevet]

Also ATH, we are hooked up w a forester/eab expert (another of my unsuccessful calls today) Wendy Van Buren I Think. we have a fully developed management plan and communication plan that soon will be presented to city council including most if not all of the suggestions posted on this thread. Where in Ohio are you located? I recall in a past thread you are also on the verge of infestation. Would really like to hear from someone from northern ohio or southern Michigan as to their success w treatments, or witnessing treatments. Would also like to add that success has been predominantly w not just outstanding specimen ashes but small ones are the most like to respond to treatment. Would also like to point another consideration, that being not just budget of tree owner the restricting factor, but a matter of ethics by the applicator. If 2 years of treatments and their residual is not the ticket then it is just an opportunistic profit making endeavor.

 

[ATH]

Where in Ohio are you located? I recall in a past thread you are also on the verge of infestation.

Would really like to hear from someone from northern ohio or southern Michigan as to their success w treatments, or witnessing treatments.

I am in Findlay...surrounded by infestations, but not right here...at least it has not been found here.

I havn't had personal experience with treatment. I am still deciding exactally what I want to do with my clients as well. I think I will end up offering soil injection service (Merit 75) -- with full disclosure that there is not promise of it working, and the fact that treatment ahead of time is most likely to offer the best control.

I'll be curious to here if you get in touch with Herms or Shetler about their use of the word "just". Have you tried e-mailing them?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If 2 years of treatments and their residual is not the ticket then it is just an opportunistic profit making endeavor.

My reading and listening leads me to believe that a regular fall/early spring soil treatment with immidicloprid would be best to ensure control.

One must tell the client to water trees well, especially the green and black ash that need wetter soil.

People must be made aware that they just might be getting into a program inperpetuity, just like crabapples. Another thing may be that the government may not allow treated specimine trees to remain on the verge of irradication zones.

 

[ATH]

........Another thing may be that the government may not allow treated specimine trees to remain on the verge of irradication zones.

Ohio is not going to be doing eradication in the western part of the State -- probably not anywhere. A legitimate concern in other areas - especially Wisconsin with all the eradication tald floating around up there.

 

[treevet]

Ohio is not going to be doing eradication in the western part of the State -- probably not anywhere.

That is true. I got a couple of calls back today from seeking the most current stance on treatment and was referred to people I already called who have not called back. ATH , I looked at Findlay on the map and compared it to the quarantine map and see that you are in Hancock county and it is quarantined already. I guess they must have just quar. part of your county? Have you had requests for treatments yet? You have just a huge cloud of ominous marked infestation looming above you. In your situation I would prob not lose a minute's sleep of conscience by treating now. What JPS said and esp w injection in soil near trunk or drench if no sprayer w Merit 75 would my choice also unless a large tree and then I prob will inject for the faster results needed by big trees.
Tough to price this stuff since results are so tenuous.

 

[treevet]

ATH I looked back at earlier posts and that is also what you considered doing anyway.

 

[treevet]

I happened to be in my office today at lunch and was lucky to receive the returned call by a prominent EAB task force mbr. I got a half hour of his valuable time and was very grateful. Scribbled 3 full size steno pgs of notes. Most interesting was the new most promising treatment. It is called Safari. It is being tested by Deb Mccauly (sorry if miss sp). It is sprayed w low pressure equipment (non motorized-fine) from ground to shoulder height. It is incorporated w substance called Penetras-bark (a bark penetrator). It works like an injection systemically w out the holes. The big encouraging factor here is it has shown success on large ashes where Merrit has shown none ( his quote). The ease and non invasive nature of application also is an obvious plus. Another tidbit of wisdom to file also is only the first instar is controlled. As they get larger control plummets or disappears. Also as we talked about wording in regards to "just before" infestation was as was suggested prob just unfortunate wording and misleading. This Deb McCauley is the Michigan State version of the Ohio State s Dan Herms re leading researchers as in Herms lEAB Fact sheet I quoted a few times. Not enough patience and prob too boring to go further into my scribbled stuff.

 

[ATH]

treevet,
I just saw an article on that yesterday that I was just coming back to link to:

Here is the article in Lawn & Landscape (I'll also put the link in plant health forum...)

I'll be curious to learn more about this.

My initial impression is that this will be a good prouct for trees with an early infestation - but we'll see if it also proves to be a "better" option for pretreatments.

Couple of notes I caught in the article:
*It doesn't sound like we will be able to use it yet in Ohio. It has been granted a "special local needs (SLN) label" in Michigan. Did the individual you talked to say anything about the legality of such use in Ohio? EDIT: I checked the Valent web site, and there is a label for Ohio Linky. For now it is just OH and MI with special labels.
*It must be applied in the spring, as where Merit would be applied in the early summer. If infestation is knocking on the door, and I get a call requesting treatment in mid June, I think I will still want Merit 75 in my tool box...
*I am guessing it will stain the bark (nothing the article said, just that penetrating oil tends to do so). But stains are better than death.