back cut ?

[smokechase II]

back cut height

A back cut higher, (called stump shot), than the face V is a generally prescribed safety item.
It can, on some occasions, stop the butt from kicking back over the stump.
Don't count on that.
What can cause the butt to be pushed back is falling a tree uphill, into another tree(s), onto objects such as rocks/stumps/logs or the tree being fell may have large limbs that curve up.

**************

The school of thought on Open Face falling is that the hinge, if not cut through will remain holding and the butt will stay in place.
Don't count on that.
Open Face is a production technique designed for small timber and this thought has a lot of application in that world.
However, it has little use in this regard in larger timber as the forces are so much greater the breaking of a hinge is common regardless of the faller’s intent.
Also, many woods will not have hinge integrity all the way to the ground. Dead, rotten, drought, recently fire killed, frozen, certain species etc will all break prior to hitting.

***************

So with either technique, please have an escape set up that takes you quickly away from the rear of the tree. Before that, plan out your lay to remove/reduce the kickback event, if possible.

**************

If you are using the stump shot method please cut a Humboldt face. That squared butt log is far more likely to catch and hold than a conventional or open face.

****************

Caveat: The closer a back cut is to the V in the face the more efficient it is.
So with falling with a higher stump shot, be ready for more cutting.

 

[(WLL)]

A back cut higher, (called stump shot), than the face V is a generally prescribed safety item.
It can, on some occasions, stop the butt from kicking back over the stump.
Don't count on that.
What can cause the butt to be pushed back is falling a tree uphill, into another tree(s), onto objects such as rocks/stumps/logs or the tree being fell may have large limbs that curve up.

**************

The school of thought on Open Face falling is that the hinge, if not cut through will remain holding and the butt will stay in place.
Don't count on that.
Open Face is a production technique designed for small timber and this thought has a lot of application in that world.
However, it has little use in this regard in larger timber as the forces are so much greater the breaking of a hinge is common regardless of the faller’s intent.
Also, many woods will not have hinge integrity all the way to the ground. Dead, rotten, drought, recently fire killed, frozen, certain species etc will all break prior to hitting.

***************

So with either technique, please have an escape set up that takes you quickly away from the rear of the tree. Before that, plan out your lay to remove/reduce the kickback event, if possible.

**************

If you are using the stump shot method please cut a Humboldt face. That squared butt log is far more likely to catch and hold than a conventional or open face.

****************

Caveat: The closer a back cut is to the V in the face the more efficient it is.
So with falling with a higher stump shot, be ready for more cutting.

best post yet, imo. keep em comming i want more folks!!!!

 

[newbym]

Always put the back cut a little (~1" - 2") higher

Lot's of good points, but one that I didn't hear was that when you have the back cut below the hinge, the tree is more likely to barber chair (tree splits up the log) and when it's above the hinge, it's the little 1" piece that peels down from the stump, giving you a much better hinge... Just don't let my boss/stepfather see this, I'd be listening to a good 2 hour lecture on correct back-cut placement I'm the climber, but he's the faller. He's dropped more big wood in Idaho and Alaska than you could imagine, and man does he know his s**t. He can pick apart a stump like you wouldn't believe. "Quit making excuses, look at that stump! The stump never lies!" - man I don't know how many times I've heard that...

 

[(WLL)]

Lot's of good points, but one that I didn't hear was that when you have the back cut below the hinge, the tree is more likely to barber chair (tree splits up the log) and when it's above the hinge, it's the little 1" piece that peels down from the stump, giving you a much better hinge... Just don't let my boss/stepfather see this, I'd be listening to a good 2 hour lecture on correct back-cut placement I'm the climber, but he's the faller. He's dropped more big wood in Idaho and Alaska than you could imagine, and man does he know his s**t. He can pick apart a stump like you wouldn't believe. "Quit making excuses, look at that stump! The stump never lies!" - man I don't know how many times I've heard that...

the stump never lies.

 

[reachtreeservi]

Only the Shadow knows....

But the Stump never lies....

 

[clearance]

Only the Shadow knows....

But the Stump never lies....

Maybe it can, like if you cut the dutchman off, so it can't be seen. For example. Altering a crime scene.........whatever.

 

[Mitchell]

I tihnkit has been updated to...

Worksafe BC requires the backcut to be 1-2" above the notch.

A humbolt cut in the stump will prevent the log from sliding back but in the tree a humbolt cut will kick the top of the tree more severely.

half to 3/4 inches on your average sized tree 2' dbh. As was said, falling uphill is not a great idea and should be avoided.

Trees will kick off the stump more from brushing other timber then off the ground.

Slighty above undercut is standard practice and should be strived for. However [there's always a however] When falling certian trees a even stump shot is safer. When falling large short squat trees you will have to cut much closer to the hinge. Potentially cutting the hinge wood off if you try for a higher stump shot. An even stump shot will allow more hinge wood to remian and more control in the fall. Some light snags I will treat the same as well.

I think the step stopping a tree from sliding back is better in theory then practice. More important by far imho is using a humbolt.

 

[BostonBull]

half to 3/4 inches on your average sized tree 2' dbh. As was said, falling uphill is not a great idea and should be avoided.

Trees will kick off the stump more from brushing other timber then off the ground.

Slighty above undercut is standard practice and should be strived for. However [there's always a however] When falling certian trees a even stump shot is safer. When falling large short squat trees you will have to cut much closer to the hinge. Potentially cutting the hinge wood off if you try for a higher stump shot. An even stump shot will allow more hinge wood to remian and more control in the fall. Some light snags I will treat the same as well.

I think the step stopping a tree from sliding back is better in theory then practice. More important by far imho is using a humbolt.

This is what I was trying to say, but was having a heck of a time putting it inot words.

That is what I was saying about the hinge being on an angle and the chances of cutting through it.

 

[treesandsurf]

Worksafe BC requires the backcut to be 1-2" above the notch.

A humbolt cut in the stump will prevent the log from sliding back but in the tree a humbolt cut will kick the top of the tree more severely.

I've wondered about this. It seems logical that the humboldt would create LESS kick when in the tree because it does not a hit a flat surface when hinging over?
In my experience it 'feels' as though the open face notch creates the least amount of jerking motion when sending a top over whilst aloft. However, I often end up using the traditional face and back cut as the rigging sling can be placed closer to the face cut, ideally creating less shock loading when rigging pieces out.

Another question, if you have a heavy head leaner or large limb that is horizontal with a lot of weight in the direction of your face, would it be appropriate to use a traditional face and backcut (or humboldt) or a different method (bore cuts considered, however some limbs or trees seem too narrow to use a bore cut method). I often find for heavy head leaners I will either make one under cut and then a top cut an inch or two (sometimes several) back from the under cut. I've also very rarely used a small traditional face cut (very narrow face). Any opinions for these scenarios?

jp

 

[smokechase II]

Credit

I don't want to give anyone any credit. Least of all somebody north of the border.

BUT, take a look at http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati.../assets/pdf/bc_faller_training_standard_1.pdf page 19.

Somehow the different type of face cuts, with regard to this discussion, got explained very well in this handout.

************************

Here is what BC specifies the back cut height be for different diameters and the three basic face cuts:
Humbolt and Swanson Undercuts:
· Up to 36” (3’-0”) Diameter = ¾ - 1” height difference
· 48” (4’-0”) to 60” (5’-0”) Diameter = 1 ½” height difference
Humbolt, Swanson and Pie Under-cuts:
· 72” (6’-0”) to 84” (7’-0”) Diameter = 2” height difference
· 96” (8’-0”) to 108” (9’-0”) Diameter = 3” height difference
· 120” (10’-0”) to 144” (12’-0”) Diameter = 4” height difference
· 156” (13’-0”) Diameter and above = 6” height difference
Conventional and Pie (frozen) Under-cuts:
· Up to 14” (1’-2”) Diameter = ¾ to 1” height difference
· 16” (1’-4”) to 36” (3’-0”) Diameter = 2” height difference
· 48” (4’-0”) to 60” (5’-0”) Diameter = 3” height difference
· 72” (6’-0”) to 84” (7’-0”) Diameter = 4” height difference
· 96” (8’-0”) to 108” (9’-0”) Diameter = 6” height difference
· 120” (10’-0”) to 144” (12’-0”) Diameter = 8” height difference
· 156” (13’-0”) Diameter and above = 12” height difference

***********************

Since I've never dropped a tree over 6 ft in diameter I guess I can forget about those back-cuts at 6" - 12" above the face.

 

[digga]

intresting read that pdf thank

 

[reachtreeservi]

Thanks Smokechase, There's some great info in that PDF !

 

[ents]

Maybe it can, like if you cut the dutchman off, so it can't be seen. For example. Altering a crime scene.........whatever.

Funny you should mention this. If I mess up a cut and the stump shows it, I'll cut that stump. I'm just thinking of someone walking thru the woods one day and reading that stump. Weird I know, just me.

 

[smokechase II]

stump removal

I think of my removing bad stumps as "replacing divots" on a golf course.

For some reason I like to throw those mini rounds into burn piles.

Saint Peter has plenty of data on me but the last thing I need is a logger walking up and asking "who was picking their nose while cutting?"

 

[newbym]

Funny you should mention this. If I mess up a cut and the stump shows it, I'll cut that stump. I'm just thinking of someone walking thru the woods one day and reading that stump. Weird I know, just me.

Hehe, you're not the only one. Unless it's getting hit with the stump grinder, it's standard practice to low-stump every single one - no evidence!

 

[mattfr12]

i cut straight on with the face cut not below or above you just got to make sure you leave enough hinge wood i wouldnt recomend it for someone who hasnt done it alot because you can very easily take to much. this is just the way the pros taught me when i was being taught how to top trees and what not.

 

[jemclimber]

One of the reasons to cut slightly above the apex of the notch is to increase the angle of the arc in the hinge making the hinge more flexible and better able to do it's job. To explain this a little better with exaggeration, it would be easier to break a stick over a 1" pipe than it would be to break the same stick over a 55 gallon drum.

 

[LTREES]

I WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL CUTTING STRAIGHT TOWARDS FIRST CUT OF A TRADITIONAL CUT. I ALWAYS GO 1"-2" ABOVE ( NEVER BELOW ). WOOD IS LIKE A CARROT, YOU CUT IT AND THE FIBERS MAKES IT TWIST. MANY THINGS I'VE READ ARE TRUE HERE, ALWAYS HAVE A WEDGE OR TWO, HAVE AN ESCAPE ROUTE, AND NEVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF A TREE YOUR CUTTING. NOTHING IS TEXT BOOK UNTIL THE TREE STOPS MOVING. I THINK TREE WORK IS LIKE RIDING A MOTORCYCLE, IF YOU DON'T RESPECT IT AND YOU LET YOUR GARD DOWN, IT'LL KILL YA.:greenchainsaw:

SMOKECHASE II THANKS FOR THAT SITE :jawdrop:

 

[super3]

Thanks Smokechase, There's some great info in that PDF !

I agree,great reading!

 

[randyg]

Why do you backcut above the face cut?
1. It provides a "kickplate" for the butt to kick against instead of kicking you if you are dumb enough to wait there to be kicked.
2. Provides a fulcrum so if you over cut the hinge on the far side of the tree, after getting pinched you can use your saw as a felling bar and . . .