Back with more ?????

[FISH BAIT]

My question is about ripping chain. I started back at it today with 2 freshly sharpened chains, from the saw shop, and neither one cut worth a flip. They cut realy slow and and rough.
I stoped and headed for the work bench to check them out. The teath were not cut to a consistent length some were 1/16" short and the rakers were almost flush with the top of the teeth. I filed the teeth all to a consistent length and took the rakers down to .030" lower than the teeth, making sure to reround them. The cut speed increased drasticly but it still cuts realy rough.

What kind of dimensions are these chains generaly cut to? What kind of error margins do you have when sharpening one? Any other causes I may be overlooking other than the chain?

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but I couldn't find anything doing a search. Bad thing is, I remember reading about this somewhere.

Thanks FB

 

[gemniii]

That's why I sharpen my own.
Look at Bailey's or Madsen's for spec on chain angles. Ripping chain is usually about 10°. There is some variation among mfg.

 

[mtngun]

Please tell us what kind of chain you are running ? Chisel or semi-chisel ? Full comp or skip ? 30 degree or 10 degree ?

Don't expect a saw shop to do a good job sharpening chains. A few do, but then there are the rest.

As has been stated many times before, Bailey's WP ripping chain is a good place to start. From there, experiment with raker angles and sharpening techniques.

 

[betterbuilt]

I'd start hand filing. The shops around here spend about as much time sharpening your chain as they do taking your money.

In the field I use this type of file because it takes the rakers down every time you sharpen.

I'm, not sure how far it takes them down but it does a good job keeping them the same.

I have had problems with rough cuts. I've found that sometimes its a harmonic thing and I turn the mill just a little from 90 degrees it stops. Other times I've found that dressing the bar will make a big difference. Chain tightness is a big factor also.

 

[FISH BAIT]

Chain

mtngun
Please tell us what kind of chain you are running ? Chisel or semi-chisel ? Full comp or skip ? 30 degree or 10 degree ?

It is a Sthil, full chisel, full comp, the teeth are cut to 5 degree.

betterbuilt
I have had problems with rough cuts. I've found that sometimes its a harmonic thing and I turn the mill just a little from 90 degrees it stops. Other times I've found that dressing the bar will make a big difference. Chain tightness is a big factor also.

I have also found the turning the mill slightly from 90 degree helps, tip forward. The bar looks strait, using a straitedge, the grove is clean, and no burrs. Chain tension doesn't seem any diferent than where it was origonaly.

gemniii
That's why I sharpen my own.
Look at Bailey's or Madsen's for spec on chain angles. Ripping chain is usually about 10°. There is some variation among mfg.

I'm just frustrated because the first time they cut the chain it worked like a champ. I am hand filing with one of the Oregon clamp on jobs, to help maintain the angle. I did some reading before I got started decided on the 5* because of a soother cut and underpowered saw.

Thanks for the help. FB

 

[BobL]

How about posting some pics of the finish you are getting.

Also post a close picture of a couple of your cutters. Just using 0.030" rakers on a near new chain will cut fast but give a rough finish.

 

[LAndrews]

One lesson I learned the hard way was that a tight fit between chain and bar is important. Too much side-to-side slop and the chain can wander around, making a wavy cut.

I don't know how much room there is between a new chain and bar, but I've found that for .063 chain, the difference between chain and bar needs to be less than about .010. IE: Bar groove measures .071 and chain measures .061.

Have had good success using a cheapie harbor freight grinder to bring chains back once filing gets them too far off. It takes a while to get used to it, but gives good results once some technique is acquired. Most recent milling job got 14 cuts in ~20" wide oak and the chain still doesn't need to be sharpened. Wow!

+1 for the Baileys or Madsens ripping chains. Good stuffs.

 

[FISH BAIT]

Finaly got pics

Here is the finish before the chain was resharpened.

Here are pics of the cuts i'm geting now.

Here are some pics of the cutters.

 

[mtngun]

Before ....

After .... Houston, WE HAVE A PROBLEM ! ! !

Chain ...

Congratulations, Fish Bait, you made BobL's day. He'll have a blast diagnosing this.

Personally, I don't see anything terribly wrong with the chain, other than it's not particularly sharp, and quite a bit has been ground off the cutters. That's the kind of wear I would expect to see on a 2 year old chain, not one that has been sharpened once.

 

[FISH BAIT]

Well here is the deal. I haven't used any chain that was origonaly made for ripping. The chain I'm using was cut from regular Sthil chain ( 1 sharpening, taken from 35* to 5* ) took it back in for another sharpening ( 2nd sharpening ) then the pics were taken after I reset the cutter length and filled the rakers ( 3rd sharpening ).
The chain did cut a little smoother after I tuned it up but not much. I have just about destroyed this chain trying to figure out what the he!! I'm doing.

mtngun, thanks for the pic help. I know less about computers than I do sawmilling.

Thanks FB

 

[fawncreekranch]

Unless you are a pro sharpener you should try to use ripping chain. It works great ( much faster and smoother). I use a clamp on file guide so I dont mess up the angles after.

 

[mtngun]

BTW, top plate angles look more like 10 degrees to my eye, but that wouldn't cause the extreme roughness.

Still waiting for our resident chain guru to weigh in.

 

[FISH BAIT]

mtngun, that is correct. After going to the sites Yall recomended I increased the top plate angle to 10*. Yet another reason for the over filed chain.

fawncreekranch, I am using one of the Oregon clamp on file guides.

FB

 

[BobL]

I can't diagnose much because the angle of the cutter shots are not square on enough, but in general the cutters don't don't look too bad to me.

What I can see is the top of the bar has been blued which means not enough chain lube (do you have an aux oiler?) or you are pushing too hard or both. If everything is working there shold be minimal pushing.

The "after" shots are typical of what happens when your overall setup hits some resonance between cutting width - chain speed and the "wood-cutter-raker" angle.

It looks the same as what I see occasionally.
These shots are taken using the same mill and saw, same chain (but with 2 stroke file touchup), same tree species - but log is about 30% wider. For more details see this threado

There is not much you can do about it as the chain is cutting with absolute maxium efficiency at that point. Sometimes angling the mill will reduce this effect. If you mill the log on a slope then reducing the slope can help. Decreasing the raker depths slightly will also change the "wood-cutter-raker" angle and kick the thing out of resonance. All of these things will also slow down cutting speed

Using semi-chisel will reduce the roughness as full chisel may dive sideways slightly more at resonance than semichisel.

BTW to reduce cutting vibe I would round over those rakers (if you are going to file then flat the file them with an excess trailing rather than leading edge) and clean out the gullets.

 

[BobL]

I can't diagnose much because the angle of the cutter shots are not square on enough, but in general the cutters don't don't look too bad to me.

OK - I decided to see what photoshop would show and under magnification, the cutters do indeed look VERY untidy.

This RH cutter cutter has a top plate angle of 19º?
The point is also blunt, ie your filing system is not taking this to a pinpoint

This LH cutter has two top plate angles, part of it is 5º and there's a small 30º section - maybe from the original cutter profile?

This sort of variation between two top plate cutter angles is asking for trouble.

The actual angles don't matter all that much, but what matters is that all the cutter angles are more or less the same

Bearing in mind I have only diagnosed two cutters, if all the RH cutters have a near 20º top plate cutter angle and the LH cutters are near 5º, this will could pull the chain more to one side than the other and could also add to cut roughness .

Also, to generate smooth cuts, the more raker depth used the more consistent the cutter angles need to be.

 

[FISH BAIT]

Thanks BobL!

Wow, those cutters do look bad blown up. I did woner about the small angle on the following edge of the top plate, it was from the origonal grind. I had no idea that the angle was that far off from one cutter to the another. I assumed that once I set the angles on the filing tool it was good, looks like I need to use a protractor to double check it.

I don'y have an aux oiler. I do need it! The cedar dust was plugging up the oiler holes in the bar. I had to stop every few cut to take the side plate off and blow them out with an air tip.

Looks like I have alot of work to do on my sharpening skills!!


Thanks Again FB

 

[mtngun]

What I can see is the top of the bar has been blued which means not enough chain lube (do you have an aux oiler?) or you are pushing too hard

Good catch, Bob. A dull chain can cause that, too.

I tend to agree that he probably hit a resonant frequency. No simple solution, but I second the recommendation for semi-chisel rather than full chisel. Not only will it cut smoother, it'll stay sharp a bit longer, too.

 

[stipes]

mtngun, that is correct. After going to the sites Yall recomended I increased the top plate angle to 10*. Yet another reason for the over filed chain.

fawncreekranch, I am using one of the Oregon clamp on file guides.

FB

I used and still do at times use a old File and Joint sharpener. I think what your describing, the Oregon is the same thing...They do work great ..
I bought a Oregon 511ax grinder just cause of milling...Saves me alot of time,,and really,,it's pretty simple to use and you'll be asking yourself why didnt I have one years ago...Once you hit a nail,,piece of iron and it happens sometimes,, it'll save alot of filing...Oh,,I hated takin my chains to a shop cause sometimes they get in a hurry and take too much off at once on the cutters then you end up toasted blue cutters..
I still have alot to learn myself,,and these folks had helped me get into something I enjoy so much... Have fun,,and go out and make something....

 

[MAD MAX]

Well I have got the same result as you with as far as the washboard type effect because my feed speed was to fast.
But as far as your cutters the gullet is way too deep, Meaning too much Hook or the file held to low. And your angle on top plate is off big time. The other guys are correct saying buy a rip chain of some kind and it will help to learn about the proper angles. Raker depth is real critical in ripping:chainsawguy:

 

[BobL]

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But as far as your cutters the gullet is way too deep,
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There is nothing inherently wrong with having deep gullets , in fact it's beneficial in helping clear sawdust and I'd recommend cleaning excess metal right out.