See what I told ya before. "With practice you will improve as arteest" . happening already; start signing them!
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I'm not sure why you would say that. I supose it was based on my post above I pulled forward. The post you quoted in its full form is very factual clear and thorough and covers even more and sums it up in one paragraph. Thats the laws of wedging 101 in its entirety or not?Unfortunately you chopped that part.
Marshy brings up a really good point in his reply to John in his above post that I brought forward. It certainly shed some light on it for me in regards to prehaps not reconizing something on paper to be wrong (in this case if memory serves me right) This is in regards to my post above and my initial thoughts when Marshy asked for Diameter of the tree in the equation. It was about an example BC Forest Saftey Council (BCFSC)
Have somewhere in their literature and maybe I have read it a few times in the last 12 yrs since certifications came in.
I'm quoting that and am going on memory. It's not my math and I believe it to be a very vague example when I wrote the post. I BELIEVE their example TO BE WEAK and I don't agree with it. It has been well documented in my posts. It's not something I would have thought about had Marshy not asked for the diameter.
As soon as he asked for diameter I knew it was based on the wedging point to the hinge. Trig, Geometry, physics?
How do we learn? I'm physical, verbal (through reading only) and solitaire) I am not a social, logical, visual or aural learner therefore diagrams don't work for me anyway. I wonder what % of people it's effective on? or is it a lot move beneficial to write the laws in one paragraph much like I did?
It would be interesting to do a poll on here? Have you ever done anything on here or anywhere considering you do teach/mentor?
In order to excel in the job I have had to learn how to highten my sense of feel like someone visually impaired. It's a lot less visual than you would ever think in most cases. I learn through physics. The application of force and the energy expelled. Ultimately, I learnt through 'pain'. There are those that teach and those that do,
I'm a practitioner, my teaching is true finders not logic, its not written on the lines, it lives between the lines. I may not see right and wong on paper, I feel right and wrong therefore I know right and wrong.
You can do it without the undercut when overcomming a falling difficulty on a back lean when you need a little more. I may cut a little over half the tree max. Sometimes it takes three levels of wedging. If you do use multiple undercuts then you have to make sure the next higher undercut is deeper than the lower one or it will split to the bottom one once it passes the centre of gravity (COG) and you will lose the tree every time.
hseII
Addicted to ArboristSite
hseII
Addicted to ArboristSite
FFS, you're not "one of those" are you?
Please continue to participate in this thread: Jon & others know what works, & you & Philbert are explaining why it works with math.
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Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
I thought a lot about those angles this summer when I dropped a solid but dead 30" ash. I misjudged the center of mass since it had lost so much of the crown - I thought I could drop it over into the woods rather than into the field so I wouldn't have to clean up all the junk (what's left of the crown of ashes killed by ash yellows just explode on impact).
So it sat back heavy on my wedges, and eventually I used and mostly destroyed every wedge I had, including some nice wooden ones.
In the end I had bored out the face and there was only holding wood on the sides so there wasn't anything more a saw could do, so I used the splitting wedges. It didn't fall until I lifted it over 2", and I had to drive those in with a sledge. I don't think I could have swung it another time. Did some back damage too, but then I'm old.
A major part of the problem was that the upper and outer mass of the crown was gone, so as I swung the top over it just didn't pull the trunk over.
There's big stacks of it on my porch and it will keep me warm later this winter.
So it sat back heavy on my wedges, and eventually I used and mostly destroyed every wedge I had, including some nice wooden ones.
In the end I had bored out the face and there was only holding wood on the sides so there wasn't anything more a saw could do, so I used the splitting wedges. It didn't fall until I lifted it over 2", and I had to drive those in with a sledge. I don't think I could have swung it another time. Did some back damage too, but then I'm old.
A major part of the problem was that the upper and outer mass of the crown was gone, so as I swung the top over it just didn't pull the trunk over.
There's big stacks of it on my porch and it will keep me warm later this winter.
You get a "like for the story anyway Chris. I don't think so.
If it looks like its leaning forward a fair bit (passing COG) and isn't going over then it was too much holding wood providing it's not limb tied that you don't realize. If it was top heavy then you may not have gotten that far. Could there have been a branch that was interfering? Maybe you missed a peice somewhere in the back cut?
IDK, you would see that on the stump.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
Nah, it was clear of everything and there was very little holding it by then. I think it was just wishful thinking making me misjudge the lean. I mean the damn thing grew near the edge of a field, maybe it's leaning into the woods? Lol, yeah right.
So I just had to lift it over, but there was a tremendous amount of force on the wedges.
Yes force on the wedge,
Heavy top weight is only going to help you once passed the COG, right? BUT considering your situation, A lighter top was helpful. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here Chris.
Sorry *Edit
Trx250r180
Saw polisher
An old indian friend of mine that used to log told me to hold my axe like a plumb bob out in front of me and i will see the lean better , It actually works .I have used it a few times now.
Learned that in Boy Scouts . . .
Philbert
Philbert
No no don't hold it like a plump bob, use it for a plump bob.
The fist time I went out falling on the coast in '97 and my first official training up to then. I saw him do that. Look at the way the legs are going on the tree and that will often tell the story. Some areas my have a natural 'east' pull and hill pull even know they may not appear that way
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The amount of good info in the last three pages here is amazing. Some of the tree felling advice I see from self professed experts on the interwebs scares me. Thanks.
hseII
Addicted to ArboristSite
Douglas Dent agrees with this method and shows using the axe and a plumb bob. I suppose a pocket watch on a chain would work great as well if anyone still carries one.
Also, when determining the lean pick two points to view the tree that are 90 degrees from eachother.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
I don't have any good pictures of it, but this shows what's left of the crown from the field:
This one is from the same angle. I was standing where it actually wanted to go (which was where my back cut was):
Most of the mass is in the fat trunk, and it's not very high, so as you wedge open the cut the center of mass does not move as far laterally for each inch as it would on some 80' tree. But the weight is still there, pushing down on the wedge.
Lots of good wood in it:
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
Yeah, I never forget that. Dead ashes with punky crowns (from ash yellows) are most of what I drop. I prefer to buck them after they fall but that isn't always possible. The woods here are in bad shape.
Looks good man. That's definitely heavy wood. You did what you had to do by leaving a post on each side to overcome a falling difficulty. Verical holding wood can definitely be an aggravator (too high of anti-kickback step) Beavertailin' the holding wood as you did would help that a lot if that ever is the case. Shallow undercut in DEPTH is going to help and wedging from the furthest point from the hinge at the back.
Invest in some good wedges chris, I like the K&H 10" for heavy lifting and I chase with the 12" or use it to free my 10" so I can stack if needed. Three 10" K&H wedges in the back alternating your hits...it would be like butter with that wedge melter you were using.
Don't forget to also cut a bit and max them all out again when you know it could be a hard lift or you are giving up an advantage. Repeat...cut...wedge...cut...wedge
The more fibers you cut the harder o
It sits down.
You used all wooden wedges?
Look at the difference in the coefficient of friction. Likely they were to steep as well?
There is no substitute for the right tool.
As far as the crown goes.
If it was branch heavy in the direction of fall then the extended branch weigh would have counterbalanced the tree some unless its a a very tall tree and an extreme lean then It just becomes more extended weigh against you. .. In this case it may be more of the opposite, due to its location. It wasn't in full crown compatition but the light is restricted on that side.
When another tree falls on a tree or a strong wind uproots the root mat and it corrects itself (sweeper) then this may be an exeption IF they were forced as sapling ( some occasions medium trees) opposite to their natural pull. You may have a huge trunk with a big trunk sweep one way and 150 more feet slight lean the other way. I would usually go with the extended weigh that goes way up there to decide where the lean is.
Hold a 3 1/2 lb axe by the head, now straight arm it. Your wrist is the hinge. Now turn the axe around and staight arm it. Same weigh and a lot heavier. The least travel the bulk of the mass has to go back to COG the easier it is. Granted, with each penatration of the wedge there will be more top movement but a long travel needs to be achieved. More force would be needed to penatrate the wedge due to more offset weight if it was distributed along 80ft at the same degree.
I can give you my tecneques but I'm not there to give you my wedges friend.
You NEED to have 'em man.
Here is a video of the big burnt hollow leaning tree with very little trunk left I cut in Gatlinburg TN after the fire storm. I wish I had got more pictures of it before I cut it, you fellows could have seen more to help give better feed back on it. I posted a couple of pictures of it in post#64 of this thread.
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