barberchair

[Woodie]

Thanks for the vid...watching things go wrong (particularly when they appeared to do things right) is a great way to learn.

(I'm talking about this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9eMk5kCgCI&NR)

How 'bout some more edumacation out of this one...what would everyone hear have done differently (in hindsight, of course...with those 20/20 eyes we all have!)? Besides a bore cut, would a more open notch have worked? It seemed to begin splitting before the notch closed, so I don't know.

By the way, if you want to see how a buncha chucklenuts do things REALLY wrong...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZJP8D2Dbk&NR

Check out the angle the pulling rope is at...apparently they skipped geometry class the day they were teaching "angles for idiots."

Thank God they didn't have a saw...

 

[Ianab]

Besides a bore cut, would a more open notch have worked? It seemed to begin splitting before the notch closed, so I don't know.

Nope, the problem was too much tension on the tree. In this case it was from a rope, but a lean will have the same effect. When you look at that tree the hinge never really hinged at all, the forces split the tree before the hinge could fold over, the notch never got to close up. A bad notch is a potential cause of barberchairing, but a good conventional notch shouldn't cause it unless there are other factor involved.

The video just popped up as 'related' when I watched the earlier one and it was such a good (or bad) example of a barberchair I though it was worth sharing.

Cheers

Ian

 

[cntrybo2]

By the way, if you want to see how a buncha chucklenuts do things REALLY wrong...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZJP8D2Dbk&NR

Check out the angle the pulling rope is at...apparently they skipped geometry class the day they were teaching "angles for idiots."

Thank God they didn't have a saw...


Did they use a saw or hold a beaver by the tail to get that face cut?!!! even for completely green guys they messed that drop up

 

[Ianab]

In the first video, that guy barely touches the tree with the saw before it starts to go. Do you guys leave that little bit of holding wood, especially with another tree leaning up against it?

I suspect there was a fair chunk of holding strap there, he just powered through it pretty fast and got the heck out of there

You do have to sorta judge how much you can leave depending on the tree and how much tension you have to deal with.

After you make the plunge cut then lightly tap in a wedge on each side of the tree. Don't hammer it in because you might break the holding wood.

Wedges are good if you aren't SURE which way the tree is going. I usually only plunge on trees that are leaning, there is only one way they are going to fall, it's just a matter of cutting them safely. They AREN'T going to sit back on the saw. If you are plunge cutting a straight tree (which is perfectly OK) then some wedges are a good idea, same as wedges in a conventional backcut.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Farmer Ferd]

did you notice how he dropped his running saw as he ran!

 

[Fumbler]

Wedges are good if you aren't SURE which way the tree is going. I usually only plunge on trees that are leaning, there is only one way they are going to fall, it's just a matter of cutting them safely. They AREN'T going to sit back on the saw. If you are plunge cutting a straight tree (which is perfectly OK) then some wedges are a good idea, same as wedges in a conventional backcut.

Cheers

Ian

Yeah, if you're sure where the tree's going then you don't need wedges.
The reason I mention them is because the other poster said he likes to use an axe because a tree sitting back cannot pinch an axe.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

My imagery of a Barber Chair; is the equal and opposite forces pushing back as a tree tries to move forward. The war in between these opposing forces giving a 'split decision'; when it overcomes the constitution of the spar.

i think that if the wood is more prone to splintering, the constitution of the spar is easier to overcome. Internal cracks can give even more problems by spar already being weakened; and compounding this by giving separately moving 'plates' of wood in between the cracks that could bind against each other's movements. For, in separate 'plates' of wood bound together we have several compression and tension pairs; with these operating forces (compression and tension) internal (at the extremes of the individual 'plates'); rather than a singular pair of tension/compression external to the whole works.

i think a slow moving tree could build pressure in front of it's own self; to give enough opposing push back to overcome the constitution of the spar; and give this split decision of a Barber Chair. A faster moving 'throw', can throw through this position of stall more cleanly; with it's inertia, before the opposing force in face builds(?) i think.

In 'good wood'; that is not cracked, and not so stiff/brittle (of which temperature and dead/dryness are factors) it can resist the back pressure in the folding wood from it's own self; it can still BC from a full Dutch step maid by a cut crossing another in the face (most notably the horizontal cut crossing beyond the more vertical cut); across the full face. Noting that if the Dutch step is just to 1 side of the face (and no other blockage in path on un-Dutched side); the open/unDutched side offers possible relief of forces; instead of the scenario of opposing it's own self; by the back pressure against the tree moving forward against the early close of the Dutch step across the full face; giving full blockage/ opposing the force of the tree lunging forward.

i think such crossed cuts (especially on the horizontal cut by passing other cut in face); to Dutch the full face are 99.8% of the time unintentional. This gives very early close; while tree totters overhead; trying to figure out if to go with the forces from the release from the backcut or the push back in face from the crossed cut(s). The stiffer/ less compressing/ more compression force in wood face; the more this effect of the Dutching is amplified. Also, the deeper the crossing kerf, the more push back leverage it has. So, a slight bypass in soft wood might crush it's own Dutching, and be of little consequence. But same in stiffer wood; will not crush the Dutch and come closer to seizing or Barber Chairing. Then especially if deeper too. In tree/off ground; climbers use these forces to benefit on snap cut of horizontal limbs; but then the force direction is more committed away from you, and not teetering overhead.

We are out there as the ants against these mighty matchstix; trying to usher their forces to our liking. To do this we must court and dance with the mighty forces correctly, and be aware of them and their powers. Ants get smoosheded very easily in the land of the giants!

 

[smokechase II]

Barber Chair video

It looks to me like the barber chair split starts before the face closes.
I'm pretty sure you can lay the blame on this one mostly on to too much pressure from the rope. (The insurance wedges are not driven, just tapped in correctly.)

No view of what holding wood was left. Could be issues there also.

A plunge cut back-cut would probably have almost eliminated the barber chair risk. Except if the cutter chose to leave too big a hinge combined with too shallow or too deep a face.

On the theory that even if you plunge but leave too much a hinge for the species that you are not familiar with or the wind comes up, think about that center face bore.

Break up the continuity of the hinge. Decrease to woods tendency to split.

Again, I have heard of triangle back-cuts and even plunge back-cuts having barber chairs. I've never heard of a barber chair with either a rotten center that connects with the face or a center face bore, (that is mimicking the prior).

The cutter does have a couple bad habits that need to be addressed. Doesn't look up even once and he is only comfortable with cutting from one side. (Note how the barber chair was tending to go toward his final cutting side. You need to be ambidextrous and quit walking around the tree.)

With their statement they do not appear to be aware of the risk of any form of pressure up high being a primary contributor to barber chair risk. It is very good that this is put out as an educational video. Could have used some shots on the rope set up and holding wood, but still worthwhile.

 

[cntrybo2]

here is a question regarding the video as well......

when you guys are taking a tree down and dropping the whole tree or the spar, Do you feel the need to work that stooped over and low to the ground? i can see if you are cutting timber for the mill but if you are cutting trees for take downs, what happend to proper work positioning, cutting waist high?

 

[John Ellison]

:biggrinbounce2: Think of the b=chair potential if you over tension the pull line, early closing face, plunge cut only the backcut, leave too much hinge and then cut the holding strap. Explosion. I agree smokechaseII, that plunge cutting the guts of the hinge is one of the best b.c. avoidance techniques. Then even if you leave what would otherwise be too thick of a hinge on the outsides, it wont chair. Will not be a perty stump tho. And I have never seen a hollow tree barber chair, but have had them to leave a tall ragged hinge when they had a fair lean and were just backcut straight from the back. Like it was starting to barberchair but got wore out early because it didnt have any help.
If you are not used to pulling trees, having the line in the top 1/3 or 1/4 gives you so much leverage that it is easy to over tension if you dont watch the tree as you tension.
Spyders point about the dif in softwood and hardwood is a good one. You can make every mistake in the book on a small, short, limby softwood and get away with it. But a small, tall, slick softwood or hardwood is a different story.

 

[smokechase II]

opps

cntrybo2:
I'm going to get chewed out for this, but on trees where a low cut is appropriate and safe, I prefer to be on one knee.
I can comfortably look up.
But escape, while better than bent over, is still poor.
When bent over, note how much more of a target the trees limbs and tops have. A faller should ask hisself, "Self, is my spine important?"

Also would like to point out that if there is any possibility of a chair, a 90 degree right angle escape should be considered beforehand. Most instructional escape diagrams say 45 degrees and not to go directly behind the direction of fall nor at a right angle.
This 90 angle is also often a best option when falling either up or down the hill. Escaping on a contour is faster, (if you include staying upright), and gets the cutter further away from any rolling material.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i like a more standing up, ready to evacuate stance when felling. But, if feeling confident, and stump cut later looks tough etc.; will cut low to let the tree leverage take stump for me; rather than cut it later. A stump can be so low, balanced and heavy; that it becomes hard to tip/arc off the backcut.

i think that rotten center trees don't BarberChair because A) there is less pinch/bind in center front becasue no hinge directly behind it (center) forcing it to do so (pinch/bind); B) more likely to crush somewhat the center front; this gives some give/ not total resistance and C) can't have Dutching in this portion becuase of these factors. A plunge cut through center face (as shown somewhere in animations here) giving apporixmate same if backcut is lined up with plunge and reaches it.

i still like the 45 rearward retreat strategy model; because the hinge doesn't care which way the tree goes on it's narrow axis, to the front face; or it's equal/opposite rear. The BarberChair push back in face tends to push backwards, not to the side in the ones i've seen. The hinge resistance is along it's long/high leverage axis (to sides), not across it's narrow/ low leverage axis (front to back).

 

[smokechase II]

escape route

"The BarberChair push back in face tends to push backwards, not to the side in the ones i've seen."

That's why escaping at 90 gegrees is better on a 'chair.
With the fulcrum being moved up and part of the butt log extending over the stump to the rear. It is especially dangerous to be anywhere close to that.
If the trees fulcrum is 10+ feet up and the butt slams down on your side, envision yourself being those few extra feet away from that whole romance by having made a right angle escape instead of a 45 and being closer.

Of course this is negated by a tree spinning and 'chairing all at once.
Smokechase, from Sisters OR that used to post here on AS saw that happen to a pro cutter once.
No good general rules on escape for that circumstance.

 

[Bermie]

I cut a heavy leaner last week...it must have had 30-35 degrees of lean, 14" DBH, heavy hardwood (casuarina) prob. 40' tall.
Conventional face cut, bore cut, average hinge, but I left a bit more holding wood in the back than normal. I was taught to cut the holding wood on a downward angle towards the backcut...this one went over before I'd cut all the way through, due to the very heavy lean, but it was controlled, no drama, no saw pinch, just a big thump as it hit the ground!
The Limeys call it a 'dogs tooth' cut, 'cause the bit left sticking up at the back resembles a dog fang...

 

[John Ellison]

Yep, if the tree has a heavy side lean and it barberchairs it might be best to just run out in front of it. Just kidding

 

[MURPHYTREE]

barber chair

barber chair is usually/always climber error. Your saw has to be sharp and ready to rev on your back cut.There is no room for error, you have to be ready to gun it when its time for it to go.This happens alot in the north shore ma. when dealing with hickory and some times with a big section of maple.You have to be ready and cut fast when its time. You have to know your leans ,your trees, and wood type! My opinion

 

[smokechase II]

Dogs tooth

Bernie:

I've only seen a couple dogs tooth stumps in the NW. That look like they were intentional by some one who could cut.

Mostly they are regarded here as an inexperienced cutter in the process of learning.

What is the purpose of angling down?
Honestly, we see it as just more cutting than necessary.

 

[Bermie]

I do believe the downward release cut for the holding wood on a leaner is to prevent the potential for pinching.
Honestly all I can really say is this is how I was taught in the UK, where it's standard practise.
That picture of yours shows a huge amount of holding wood behind the bore, mine would only be about a quarter of the diameter. (size of tree depending of course)
I don't see how it is any more cutting than releasing the holding wood with a horizontal cut...unless you are cutting out backward from your bore cut all the way?
Any UK people please feel free to comment...

 

[Ianab]

barber chair is usually/always climber error.

I agree

Your saw has to be sharp and ready to rev on your back cut.There is no room for error, you have to be ready to gun it when its time for it to go.

Thats the problem using a conventional notch and back cut on a leaner - no room for error. Or getting 1/2 though the back cut and hitting a nail, or your saw cutting out.. or 10 other things that could go wrong

The advantage with the bore cut and holding strap is that you set up the notch, hinge and holding strap in your own good time. You can walk around and look at the other side, trim a bit more, make sure no one has walked into the fall zone etc. Then one small simple cut lets the whole thing go in a controlled manner.

I was taught to cut the holding wood on a downward angle towards the backcut...this one went over before I'd cut all the way through, due to the very heavy lean, but it was controlled, no drama, no saw pinch, just a big thump as it hit the ground!

Cant really argue, the cut worked safely and the tree fell where you wanted, but I was taught to make the release cut flat and a bit below the bore cut ( a few inches ). This reduces the chance of the saw being caught in the cut as the last bit of the strap usually tears and fractures before you can cut right through. If you get it just right you will be able to cut the strap to directly below the bore cut, and the couple of inches of long grain will then shear off cleanly and the tree starts to fall. The bigger trees I'm falling usually end up pulling some fibre when they release, but it's only in a small area and in the butt flare so I dont really loose any timber. I'd prefer to risk a bit of tearout and an untidy stump rather than barberchairing a 4 or 5ft log

Cheers

Ian

 

[smokechase II]

Stump forensics

Stump forensics:

I don't know what happened on the stump photos I posted. I just found them on a couple oaks near Woodburn Oregon.

The one closest to the camera appears to be a hens tooth gone wrong. Looks like the bore was too close to the face and the face wasn't well cut anyway. Then the Hens tooth release cut is too big, (as I understand it), and for some reason the tree wasn't ready to go and they kept cutting even below the plunge.
This photo may well be a good case for "whatever way you cut, do it right."

Then again, I can't say for sure without calling in a TSI. (Timber Stump Investigator)

I don't see how the angled cut would have any less potential to be pinched than a flat one. Given that they were cutting the same amount of wood. Actually, an angled cut to accomplish the same amount of release is going to have more surface area contact to go in the same distance. Thereby increasing the potential friction.
Remember, a tree setting back will still close the kerf (at a given distance from the hinge), whether it’s angled or flat, the same amount.

The exception to this is if you've very steeply angled the dogs tooth it could have a bit of flexibility that you wouldn't have in a flat or 45 degree angle. Making it a little easier to talk out of a pinch. This is gonna vary with species, live dead etc.

You got any photos or diagrams?