BBB vs TCIA

[mckeetree]

yOUR CALL; DIFFERENT STROKES... but i hear that it makes a difference in ins. premiums.
Those companies that have it make sure that folks know, just as TCIA and others do. It's like arb cert, higher profile in some places than others, but growing...

I ask our carrier if it would make a difference in our premiums. He called the company and said with a start up company it probably would but with us, no. He said the ins. company told him that any company that got accredited and got a break on premiums were paying more than the best rates to start with and if they think any different they are out of the know.

The certified arborist thing is easy as pie and I got it when the term "certified arborist" got to buzzing on the net a little. People look for that. They also appreciate the fact I have some green education. People just don't know what TCIA is and most don't care. If anybody ask me what TCIA is really, really good at I would tell them "Collecting membership fees, they are super good at that."

 

[mckeetree]

what it has done:

enlighten me in new techniques, inform me & in general....if for anything posterity sake!


LXT...........

When I first heard about the CA credential years ago I was skeptical. When I got to the test location to take the exam to get my CA I changed my mind in the parking lot. I attempted to carry on some tree care conversations with some of the guys that were there to take the test, and man, those guys didn't know anything. Some were scared into zombie's, some were blurting out the kind of crap you hear some folks blurt on this forum about how their customers don't care what they are and some were saying things so stupid it would make you dizzy. I would be afraid to let them even try to fertilize a tree I thought anything of. Right then and there I decided whatever the merits of this CA credential is if it helps this herd of yahoos any at all it is a big step in the right direction.

 

[treevet]

Good point and Teamtree makes a good point amongst others....

No matter what you know or can do or what credentials you have.....if they don't like you then you won't be working there.....period.

 

[RacerX]

Contrary to popular belief the BBB has no government affiliation and only survives on selling businesses on the idea that being a member in good standing will help make them more marketable. They sound completely impotent to do any real good if you ask me.

 

[mckeetree]

....if they don't like you then you won't be working there.....period.

Yep. And you can count on that.

 

[treeseer]

McKee, it sounds like you have put in the work to get to a high level on your own--power to you! re moving the herd of yahoos, totally agree, but with the understanding that i was in that herd at one time so i do not look down on them!

"I just see all these certs, accredited biz, memberships, affiliations, etc... as a way for someone to make a living off a trade without having to do any real physical work! I think that is classified as a SCAM!"

lxt, I classify mental and political and organizational work as....WORK that is as hard as the physical end of the biz, so I would not look down on them either. Any work that raises the profile of the industry helps everyone in the industry.

:monkey:

 

[S Mc]

lxt, it seems your general theme is that you would like to get something for nothing. You would also prefer that free something to "pave the road with gold"; so you want your return on that something, that you put nothing in to, to be worth alot. The old saying "you get what you pay for" comes to mind here.

The whole accreditation process makes you jump through a lot of hoops. They help you dot the i's and cross the t's. They will then encourage, or demand if you will, that you stay up on that high level of performance in order to maintain that accreditation. And yes, it will cost you. They are going to ask a lot of questions and ask for a commitment in return. For that, they are going to back you. I'm sorry...tell me again, what is wrong with that?

Just because the "world" hasn't heard of this yet, doesn't mean they won't. It is a relatively new process. When the CA certification began, no one had heard of it either.

My husband and I aren't accredited but I called and talked with Bob Rouse about the possibility a couple of years ago. Being just a twosome, we figured at this point, there wasn't the need. The accreditation is geared more towards companies with several employees. I viewed it as a potential marketing tool, but one that did not suit our needs. That doesn't make it a bad concept, just one not applicable to us specifically.

We tell everyone, and proudly I might add, that we are members and support both our national and international industry organizations. But I don't care how many organizations you belong to, you still have to do good work and be ethical about it in order to build your business. That is the bottom line. If you want more work than the rest, be better than the rest.

If you decide accreditation is not for you, that's fine. However, that does not then automatically mean that it is pointless or the only reason for its existance is to scam you out of money.

I do not feel that my job is more important or meaningful just because it is something I do. I have been, and still am, ipart of both the physical aspect of the job and the mental/clerical end. They are both intregal parts of doing business. They are each part of a whole.

Sylvia

 

[treeseer]

So Dan, as a fellow lone wolf, I hear you, and ask you--

what do you think these orgs should do to work better for the little guy, and the trees?

 

[mckeetree]

I don't support the TCIA and their accreditation program. It gives large companies an advantage over the little guys

I am a TCIA member but I think there is more effective ways to improve your business than by fooling with the accreditation deal offered by them if you are going to put time and money in the deal. A program customized to your business. And like TreeCo says, it is geared towards larger companies. And besides, those guys at TCIA haven't shown me anything to make me decide they are ready to accredit anybody for anything. I think ISA would be as qualified.

 

[lxt]

lxt, it seems your general theme is that you would like to get something for nothing. You would also prefer that free something to "pave the road with gold"; so you want your return on that something, that you put nothing in to, to be worth alot. The old saying "you get what you pay for" comes to mind here.

The whole accreditation process makes you jump through a lot of hoops. They help you dot the i's and cross the t's. They will then encourage, or demand if you will, that you stay up on that high level of performance in order to maintain that accreditation. And yes, it will cost you. They are going to ask a lot of questions and ask for a commitment in return. For that, they are going to back you. I'm sorry...tell me again, what is wrong with that?

Just because the "world" hasn't heard of this yet, doesn't mean they won't. It is a relatively new process. When the CA certification began, no one had heard of it either.

My husband and I aren't accredited but I called and talked with Bob Rouse about the possibility a couple of years ago. Being just a twosome, we figured at this point, there wasn't the need. The accreditation is geared more towards companies with several employees. I viewed it as a potential marketing tool, but one that did not suit our needs. That doesn't make it a bad concept, just one not applicable to us specifically.

We tell everyone, and proudly I might add, that we are members and support both our national and international industry organizations. But I don't care how many organizations you belong to, you still have to do good work and be ethical about it in order to build your business. That is the bottom line. If you want more work than the rest, be better than the rest.

If you decide accreditation is not for you, that's fine. However, that does not then automatically mean that it is pointless or the only reason for its existance is to scam you out of money.

I do not feel that my job is more important or meaningful just because it is something I do. I have been, and still am, ipart of both the physical aspect of the job and the mental/clerical end. They are both intregal parts of doing business. They are each part of a whole.

Sylvia

No one is trying to get "something for nothing" at least not me!! maybe you are reffering to the organizations I mentioned? the golden road.... I have not walked on, I put my time in the saddle & bucket through apprenticeship, my field knowledge is just as good/better than many CA`s in my area & that was before I became a CA.

Funny how we.... build our trade as those who usually dont have the skill set but do have the want to be involved are the ones behind most of these money grabbing organizations. Hmmm..... my hard work & all those who came before me.....now we`re better because they have enlightened the public through memberships, organizations, etc... PLEASE............ we are worse off now than 20yrs ago...look at the stats!

wages.....same or less than 20yrs ago & the fatality/injury rate.......wow! much higher!! check out the labor dept stats!

Any time there is an industry without need for degrees that provides a good living with the ability through taught skills to "moonlight" & make even more money...........there will now be a group of non able to obtain the skill types who use their "mental" abilities to form credentials, memberships, org`s, etc... to make money they are other wise not able to earn!

Since I have joined this site ISA has created atleast 4 new credentials beside CA......which was their "hallmark" Tcia has jumped in and created credentials as well along with accreditation!! Note: key word- Created

as far as the clerical "mental" part of the job, its not all that hard dear; I am a small operation too & do it all!! believe me...........playing with quickbooks & doing audits, year end inventory, etc... no way shape or form compares to being in the field doing the "physical" side of it....sorry! besides...I dont like giving my hard earned cash to some entity who has their clerical workers lobbying the govt`s at all levels in an attempt for their org. to be mandatory for one to join & become certified through in order to obtain work!!



LXT....................

 

[S Mc]

You stated in one of your posts that in order to keep accreditation you would need to renew dues. And appeared to be appalled by this. But perhaps your business policy is to go back to client's year after year and maintain a tree you have initially pruned, keeping it in good form, for free. Wow, good for you. I am impressed. I must confess, we charge for return visits.

Does your city or state require a business license? Do you have to renew that every year? What about your insurance premiums?

The industry is trying their best to come up with some sort of system(s) that will give the professional incentive to operate ethically and the consumer some manner in which to tell if a business is qualified. Is this system perfect? Of course not.

Accreditation is a business decision. In our situation, a 12" chipper would cost us more than it would make us. We could sit and rail against the company for being money grabbing and unnecessary or just recognize that for our business it is inappropriate. However, the 12" chipper is a key component to many companies; works well for them and is appropriate.

You are proud that you feel you are more qualified than others...well, join the club. But I don't feel the need to bash every organization or entity that I choose NOT to join.

Having the skills to run a small company is good. It saves you money. However, if you think because you are capable of handling your small company on your own means everyone can, then you are mistaken. Running a national organization or being part of that team require many skills beyond Quickbooks.

I don't see where we are worse off than we were 20 years ago, but I have no idea what stats you are referring to. In fact, part of your post was completely unintelligible. Please finish your sentences, not all of us are mind readers.

By the way, Merry Christmas.

Sylvia

 

[lxt]

You stated in one of your posts that in order to keep accreditation you would need to renew dues. And appeared to be appalled by this. But perhaps your business policy is to go back to client's year after year and maintain a tree you have initially pruned, keeping it in good form, for free. Wow, good for you. I am impressed. I must confess, we charge for return visits.

Does your city or state require a business license? Do you have to renew that every year? What about your insurance premiums?

The industry is trying their best to come up with some sort of system(s) that will give the professional incentive to operate ethically and the consumer some manner in which to tell if a business is qualified. Is this system perfect? Of course not.

Accreditation is a business decision. In our situation, a 12" chipper would cost us more than it would make us. We could sit and rail against the company for being money grabbing and unnecessary or just recognize that for our business it is inappropriate. However, the 12" chipper is a key component to many companies; works well for them and is appropriate.

You are proud that you feel you are more qualified than others...well, join the club. But I don't feel the need to bash every organization or entity that I choose NOT to join.

Having the skills to run a small company is good. It saves you money. However, if you think because you are capable of handling your small company on your own means everyone can, then you are mistaken. Running a national organization or being part of that team require many skills beyond Quickbooks.

I don't see where we are worse off than we were 20 years ago, but I have no idea what stats you are referring to. In fact, part of your post was completely unintelligible. Please finish your sentences, not all of us are mind readers.

By the way, Merry Christmas.

Sylvia

for the unitelligible sections of my post.....I apologize, I will try to communicate to you on a level you can better understand!

you make comment about not being worse off than 20yrs ago but dont know about the stats I bring up........thats intelligent uhh? we are technologically better!! but not financially better or better with safety.

I return to my customers & charge them...yes! I provide a service & they pay for that service. you are missing my point totally!! re-read my post paragraph 2 & the concluding statement in particular!

My state does not require license, insurance protects the customer & me! you are comparing requirements for biz to voluntary but soon to be required elements for biz! big difference!

these Org`s. are trying to better our trade I agree...but at our expense dont forget! sorry, I still think of america as free enterprise & when the lobbying attempts of any Org. mandate what must be that has never been only to serve their betterment then Yes I am upset!

provide credentials & other benies & charge for it, but stay outta the politics it will only ruin the small biz. lastly......I fail to see what I did not finish that would require one to be a mind reader! being more qualified is a matter of ones own opinion.....I just do the best I can with respect to those who trained me!



LXT..............

 

[BC WetCoast]

No one is trying to get "something for nothing" at least not me!! maybe you are reffering to the organizations I mentioned? the golden road.... I have not walked on, I put my time in the saddle & bucket through apprenticeship, my field knowledge is just as good/better than many CA`s in my area & that was before I became a CA.

Funny how we.... build our trade as those who usually dont have the skill set but do have the want to be involved are the ones behind most of these money grabbing organizations. Hmmm..... my hard work & all those who came before me.....now we`re better because they have enlightened the public through memberships, organizations, etc... PLEASE............ we are worse off now than 20yrs ago...look at the stats!

wages.....same or less than 20yrs ago & the fatality/injury rate.......wow! much higher!! check out the labor dept stats!

Any time there is an industry without need for degrees that provides a good living with the ability through taught skills to "moonlight" & make even more money...........there will now be a group of non able to obtain the skill types who use their "mental" abilities to form credentials, memberships, org`s, etc... to make money they are other wise not able to earn!

Since I have joined this site ISA has created atleast 4 new credentials beside CA......which was their "hallmark" Tcia has jumped in and created credentials as well along with accreditation!! Note: key word- Created

as far as the clerical "mental" part of the job, its not all that hard dear; I am a small operation too & do it all!! believe me...........playing with quickbooks & doing audits, year end inventory, etc... no way shape or form compares to being in the field doing the "physical" side of it....sorry! besides...I dont like giving my hard earned cash to some entity who has their clerical workers lobbying the govt`s at all levels in an attempt for their org. to be mandatory for one to join & become certified through in order to obtain work!!



LXT....................

Once upon a time, there were no qualifications required (education or training) to become a doctor, dentist (used to be barbers who did double duty) engineer, lawyer or accountant. Over time practitioners in each field, who felt there were unqualified people causing harm, joined together into associations, and lobbied government for standards. Most of these groups now have Right to Title and Right to Practice legislation.

In my opinion, arborists should be following this same path. It takes time and energy, but in the end will benefit both the practicioners and the public.

Having been involved my Professional Foresters association, there is a clear need for people who have technical knowledge but also have the 'political' and lobbyist skills to work with legislators.

The ISA is a international certifying body. For it to remain relevant, it must make it's certifications desirable to the consumers of our services (residential, commercial, governmental, institutional and utilities). This requires marketing and lobbying. I forsee a point where regional associations become more relavent than an international association, but at this time I don't see any on the horizon.

I see many people complain on this board about 'cash grabs' from the ISA. However, I don't see any "owner" of the ISA other than the members. No individual is getting rich, there are no shareholders. It seems all the money collected is spent on things like marketing, promotion, training and yes administration.

From experience, once the ISA gets serious about discipline and ethics, then costs will rise. For our forester's association, a complaint that requires investigation costs $5-10,000 and if a citation for hearing is issued, then the cost to the association is $250,000+.

 

[lxt]

Bc, good post! I agree with a large portion of it, the point I was trying to make & hopefully it will come across right is;

Cerification is not bad!!! its when (as with the ISA) they create additional/many other certs. that honestly should fall under the umbrella of one certification & that being CA. right now while typing I am reading & answering CEU questions pertaining to emergency response, if this was a required hands on test then the designation of certified safety person or certified tree worker could be met(partially or in full) under the CA designation as it should be!

I see certified safety person, aerial specialist, Accredited this or that, etc... showing me each entity Tcia & ISA are in competition as to who can create more certifications all the while each one is claiming theirs is a must!!! they`re watering down the credential meaning, I mean really what is the reason for Tcia & ISA to create new certs.? The Arborist credential should cover most if not all.......The BCMA cert. I can understand

As far as lobbying goes....I dont agree! there are already "laws" in place & ANSI has just been re-done by the peers within the tree care field! all the lobbying attempts by ISA & TCIA are doing is to make sure laws or ordinances provide a right to work for their credential holders!

So what entity should have their training put ahead of the other? who does a better job? should money dictate whose credential is better? etc..
ACRT has a fine hands on training program, most Unions whose members work around powerlines have a good training program(LCTT)......most of what I was taught when obtaining my line clearance cert. (classroom) was enough that I could of passed the CA exam & I know guys that went through ACRT that are just as knowledgeable & could of done the same.

Without offense this is the point I was trying to make: certain entities as mentioned above entail hands on, safety, rescue, proper practices, climbing techniques, on going training, etc... they provide you with a cert., they dont lobby & constantly upgrade their courses without creating "add on certs" they incorporate the "new" within their past teachings & offer refreshers/ongoing training.

These entities unions/ACRT require working while you learn or you pay for your course!!!! the training from either of these two entities is far more "real world" than ISA or TCIA..........So why cant their Cert`s be the standard & this here is the point, they are unwaivering in their training which has stood the test of time, they provide insight & help BUT do not lobby in a monpolizing fashion that portrays a pay money for a created Cert. type of greed, that if you dont obtain means you cant work for or in certain fields

Even the professionals that you mentioned dont have to become members of an organization........they all have Degrees and have had to pass "barr" exams or similar. their joining of anything is voluntary & usually for personal gain. Untill our field requires the same there is no comparison!!!!



LXT..............

 

[pdqdl]

So Dan, as a fellow lone wolf, I hear you, and ask you--

what do you think these orgs should do to work better for the little guy, and the trees?

I have an idea! Why not give each and every member with a category of certification according to their assets and training? Rather than make certification an all or none process, why not make it qualitative, so that a potential customer will know exactly who/what they are hiring?

I think that this could be done in about 3-5 "size" categories, and 3-5 "quality" categories, and then each member would be able to work towards the highest rating that accurately describes their operation. This would also assist reluctant members to continue the evaluation process rather than looking at it as a one-time expense.

Myself, I don't think membership in TCIA would have any measurable effect on my customer base. I have NEVER been asked what trade organizations we were members of, and I have never heard one of my customers inquire as to what professional training we had.

In our area, I think it is generally assumed by our market that tree companies are a bunch of drunken dope heads, and if you want to avoid that problem, you need to call the guy with the biggest ads and the shiniest trucks. Naturally, the referral system works best to overcome the stigma of not being a large company.